(June 26, 2014 at 2:12 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: That's part of the problem when discussing atheism with people, because there is the misconception that atheism is antitheism. I simply do not accept the claims about God's existence, what would classify me as?

Anti-theism usually just means something like anti-religious. People can't have a misconception about what an atheist is (on the topic of belief in gods) if all they mean by 'atheist' is something like "one rejects the existence of gods", which is what most people mean by 'atheist'. And since words really have usage, not meaning (or essential meaning, rather), atheist "means" one who thinks gods do not exist.

You sound more like an agnostic to me.

(June 26, 2014 at 3:38 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote:

(June 26, 2014 at 2:12 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: That's part of the problem when discussing atheism with people, because there is the misconception that atheism is antitheism. I simply do not accept the claims about God's existence, what would classify me as?

Anti-theism usually just means something like anti-religious. People can't have a misconception about what an atheist is (on the topic of belief in gods) if all they mean by 'atheist' is something like "one rejects the existence of gods", which is what most people mean by 'atheist'. And since words really have usage, not meaning (or essential meaning, rather), atheist "means" one who thinks gods do not exist.

You sound more like an agnostic to me.

No... I'm an agnostic atheist. Gnosticism addresses the epistemological quesiton, "can it be known". No, I don't think it can be known. Theism or atheism or antitheism address the theological quesiton "does one believe".

I don't claim to know about the existence/nonexistence of God(s), but I do not accept or believe the claims that they do. Agnostic atheist.

(June 26, 2014 at 3:35 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: You can keep saying it over and over again, but atheism is not the assertion that there are no gods. That's anti-theism.

While I would say that (and identify as an anti-theist), it isn't a position inherent in anti-theism. I've been waiting to quote me some dead atheist prophets for awhile now

"I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful." -Hitchens

(June 26, 2014 at 3:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(June 26, 2014 at 3:35 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: You can keep saying it over and over again, but atheism is not the assertion that there are no gods. That's anti-theism.

While I would say that (and identify as an anti-theist), it isn't a position inherent in anti-theism. I've been waiting to quote me some dead atheist prophets for awhile now

"I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful." -Hitchens

I'm not sure I quite get what you're saying.

(June 26, 2014 at 3:40 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: No... I'm an agnostic atheist. Gnosticism addresses the epistemological quesiton, "can it be known". No, I don't think it can be known. Theism or atheism or antitheism address the theological quesiton "does one believe".

And what is a belief? It's a propositional attitude, i.e something you think is or is not the case. Here, let me reuse an earlier analogy which no one answered, aside from saying that I was cheating, because I think it clearly illustrates the problem with trying to define atheism as "lacking belief in gods":

1
0
-1

It is patently false for someone to say that because 0 isn't a positive number (and therefore "lacks positivity), that it is therefore a negative number. Yes, it IS true that zero lacks the property of positivity, but that's just something zero has in common with negative numbers. Likewise, it is true that atheists (and agnostics) lack belief in gods, but that's not why they're atheists. An atheist is one who rejects the existence of gods. That they "lack belief" is not what makes them an atheist. That's just an incidental commonality they have with agnostics, ignostics and people who have never heard of god concepts.

Check out my ET analogy on page 8 for a version of this analogy which deals with belief.

Quote:I don't claim to know about the existence/nonexistence of God(s), but I do not accept or believe the claims that they do. Agnostic atheist.

No one is saying that atheists have to claim they know that gods don't exist (even if I might be willing to go that far, perhaps). This is the thing, agnostics don't merely claim it cannot be known. They say something like "Our epistemic situation is such that I cannot answer the question 'Do gods exist?' either affirmatively (theist) or contra (atheist)." You're getting bogged down in sloppy etymology. The "a" at the beginning of the word doesn't always negate what's in front of it, i.e "afloat" doesn't mean not to float, but that something is floating.

---

(June 26, 2014 at 3:49 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(June 26, 2014 at 3:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: While I would say that (and identify as an anti-theist), it isn't a position inherent in anti-theism. I've been waiting to quote me some dead atheist prophets for awhile now

"I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful." -Hitchens

I'm not sure I quite get what you're saying.

He seems to basically be saying that you're confused on what anti-theism is. It's not equivalent to a strong atheist as you earlier said, but to people who think theism is something that is vile and needs to be fought against. Anti-religious, basically.

(June 26, 2014 at 3:58 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote:

(June 26, 2014 at 3:40 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: No... I'm an agnostic atheist. Gnosticism addresses the epistemological quesiton, "can it be known". No, I don't think it can be known. Theism or atheism or antitheism address the theological quesiton "does one believe".

And what is a belief? It's a propositional attitude, i.e something you think is or is not the case. Here, let me reuse an earlier analogy which no one answered, aside from saying that I was cheating, because I think it clearly illustrates the problem with trying to define atheism as "lacking belief in gods":

1
0
-1

It is patently false for someone to say that because 0 isn't a positive number (and therefore "lacks positivity), that it is therefore a negative number. Yes, it IS true that zero lacks the property of positivity, but that's just something zero has in common with negative numbers. Likewise, it is true that atheists (and agnostics) lack belief in gods, but that's not why they're atheists. An atheist is one who rejects the existence of gods. That they "lack belief" is not what makes them an atheist. That's just an incidental commonality they have with agnostics, ignostics and people who have never heard of god concepts.

Check out my ET analogy on page 8 for a version of this analogy which deals with belief.

Quote:I don't claim to know about the existence/nonexistence of God(s), but I do not accept or believe the claims that they do. Agnostic atheist.

No one is saying that atheists have to claim they know that gods don't exist (even if I might be willing to go that far, perhaps). This is the thing, agnostics don't merely claim it cannot be known. They say something like "Our epistemic situation is such that I cannot answer the question 'Do gods exist?' either affirmatively (theist) or contra (atheist)." You're getting bogged down in sloppy etymology. The "a" at the beginning of the word doesn't always negate what's in front of it, i.e "afloat" doesn't mean not to float, but that something is floating.

That's exactly what I'm saying.. "atheism" isn't the opposite of theism, it is the 0 position, not making a claim either way. "Do gods exist" is a question that has a definite yes or no answer. Theists would answer yes, anti-theists would answer no, and atheism is the default, non-claimant position. Additonally, I never said that the 'a' in front of theism negates the word. I'm an atheist, and an a-antitheist (as ugly as that word looks).

Uhhhhh... From Oxford:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/def...sh/atheist

"A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods"

Why is this so difficult to comprehend, MFM? It's infuriating!

My understanding of anti-theism is that it's the position of being against people believing in God (or gods). Sort of: I'm an atheist and you should be an atheist, too! Although I suppose it's technically possible for someone to be a theist and think everyone should be an atheist, I doubt such a person actually exists.

(June 26, 2014 at 4:00 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: That's exactly what I'm saying.. "atheism" isn't the opposite of theism, it is the 0 position, not making a claim either way. "Do gods exist" is a question that has a definite yes or no answer. Theists would answer yes, anti-theists would answer no, and atheism is the default, non-claimant position.

That's not what you're saying, because I'm not saying atheist is the 0 position, agnostic is. theism and atheism go beyond that. Theisys answer yes, atheists no, agnostics don't know or can't know. Antitheism has nothing to do with this, it has to do with being opposed to theism.

Quote:Additonally, I never said that the 'a' in front of theism negates the word. I'm an atheist, and an a-antitheist (as ugly as that word looks).

You read that out of context. I was talking about the "a" in front of "agnostic", not atheism.

(June 26, 2014 at 4:15 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote:

(June 26, 2014 at 4:00 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: That's exactly what I'm saying.. "atheism" isn't the opposite of theism, it is the 0 position, not making a claim either way. "Do gods exist" is a question that has a definite yes or no answer. Theists would answer yes, anti-theists would answer no, and atheism is the default, non-claimant position.

That's not what you're saying, because I'm not saying atheist is the 0 position, agnostic is. theism and atheism go beyond that. Theisys answer yes, atheists no, agnostics don't know or can't know. Antitheism has nothing to do with this, it has to do with being opposed to theism.

Quote:Additonally, I never said that the 'a' in front of theism negates the word. I'm an atheist, and an a-antitheist (as ugly as that word looks).

You read that out of context. I was talking about the "a" in front of "agnostic", not atheism.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.