If you told me so? No. If you could demonstrate that it was so, I'd at least have to concede that something, somehow, managed to teleport matter and then revive a woman (not as impressive as the first bit, granted). sure.

There was a late edit in my last post, I;m having trouble with an electrical storm here atm. Would love to see that addressed.

(June 28, 2014 at 8:12 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If you told me so? No. If you could demonstrate that it was so, I'd at least have to concede that something, somehow, managed to teleport matter and then revive a woman (not as impressive as the first bit, granted). sure.

Or! The machine was in the place all the time (back from being lent)... and someone knew it was needed. See! I helped you with an explanation.

Or... it was indeed a miracle, as I believe it was.

That was in fact, a true story about my own mother!

(June 28, 2014 at 8:12 pm)Rhythm Wrote: There was a late edit in my last post, I;m having trouble with an electrical storm here atm. Would love to see that addressed.

I'll pray! LOL

(June 28, 2014 at 8:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: Or! The machine was in the place all the time (back from being lent)... and someone knew it was needed. See! I helped you with an explanation.

Or... it was indeed a miracle, as I believe it was.

That was in fact, a true story about my own mother!

Why would I need to explain it? How could I? I wasn't there. The hospital could explain it, of course. They could at least attest to the miraculous teleportation of equipment. They might even notice if a patient dies and then comes back to life, maybe. If I ran that hospital I;d put it on every Ad.

"Come to St. Rhythm West, where needed and unavailable equipment has been known to miraculously appear in time to revive the dead"

(June 28, 2014 at 7:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: No evasion. I have had many, MANY miracles from Faith in God!

I didn't ask for miracles.

(June 28, 2014 at 7:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: But what would my experiences do for you?

Neither did I ask for your experiences.

(June 28, 2014 at 7:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: And truthfully.... our "personal" experiences are the only things important to us. Correct?

No

(June 28, 2014 at 7:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: So again, why would me, relating to you; miracles through my faith do anything but bring more criticism?

It works for me, and others time and time again. And that is why I have strong faith.

What do you mean 'it works for me'. What does it do?

I asked for something that faith has discovered, a single fact, like the discovery of electricity. But now I realise that you haven't even said what faith actually does in order for it to work.

(June 28, 2014 at 7:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: I see God in EVERYTHING! You see Him in NOTHING.

You see god in dog shit too then? What about flesh eating bacteria? What about cancer?

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(June 28, 2014 at 7:58 pm)ronedee Wrote: Well... to be honest. They are very personal. I expect God to help me in all the small things. Which He does. And that can be explained away all day! But, some of the big miracles were things very close to my heart. And were life and death matters. And not just one, or 2. Several. And not explainable any other way.

So its just one giant argument from ignorance.

I'm sure if you described these 'miracles' to us, we may be able to enlighten you as to what caused them. At the very least, we would come to the conclusion that we don't know how it happened.

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(June 28, 2014 at 8:06 pm)ronedee Wrote: But if I told you my mother died of a heart attack, and the hospital needed a "special" machine (that was lent to a nearby hospital) that starts the heart from inside the body,just appeared in her room and she came back to life.... would you then believe in God?

You mean a defibrillator? It just appeared out of thin air before your eyes?

(June 28, 2014 at 8:06 pm)ronedee Wrote: Would that change your mind about anything?

No, I would think you were lying or mistaken.

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(June 28, 2014 at 8:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: Or! The machine was in the place all the time (back from being lent)... and someone knew it was needed. See! I helped you with an explanation.

A defibrillator needed in a hospital?!?! What manner of nonsense is this!

P.S. for Ronedee: that was sarcasm.

(June 28, 2014 at 8:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: Or... it was indeed a miracle, as I believe it was.

So a defibrillator being found in a hospital just in time to revive your mother, is a miracle?
Well if you think that is a miracle, what isn't a miracle?
When you've lost your keys and you pray to god then find them, is that a miracle? How about when you pray for your favourite sports team to win?

Surely a real miracle would have been your mother not having a heart attack in the first place.

(June 28, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: I didn't ask for miracles.

Neither did I ask for your experiences.

Then why comment on them?

(June 28, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: What do you mean 'it works for me'. What does it do?

Do you really care?

(June 28, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: I asked for something that faith has discovered, a single fact, like the discovery of electricity. But now I realise that you haven't even said what faith actually does in order for it to work.

Do you want examples of faith? Or faith in God?

(June 28, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: You see god in dog shit too then? What about flesh eating bacteria? What about cancer?

I even see Him in you.

(June 28, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: So its just one giant argument from ignorance.

The ignorance is on your part, not mine.

(June 28, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: I'm sure if you described these 'miracles' to us, we may be able to enlighten you as to what caused them. At the very least, we would come to the conclusion that we don't know how it happened.

So, you've made my point. There is no reason to tell you about Faith.

(June 28, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: You mean a defibrillator? It just appeared out of thin air before your eyes?

No. I believe it was a VAD, which is only used for operations, not emergencies. But it's useless, and painful to explain anything to you.

(June 28, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: No, I would think you were lying or mistaken.

Rythmn... I hope you are seeing why I didn't want to relate any of my experiences here. There is/was no reason.

(June 28, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: A defibrillator needed in a hospital?!?! What manner of nonsense is this!

Thanks doctor... I'll relate that to the hospital for you.

(June 28, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: P.S. for Ronedee: that was sarcasm.

Thanks! I love sarcasm when my mom's life is the brunt of it!

(June 28, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: So a defibrillator being found in a hospital just in time to revive your mother, is a miracle?
Well if you think that is a miracle, what isn't a miracle?
When you've lost your keys and you pray to god then find them, is that a miracle? How about when you pray for your favourite sports team to win?

Surely a real miracle would have been your mother not having a heart attack in the first place.

Again doctor... it wasn't a defrib machine needed.

I don't normally pray for a bunch of overpaid assholes tossing balls around.

And I would've prayed for my mom to NOT have a heart attack "IF" I knew she was going to have one!

Thanks again for all your great responses to my mothers care and well being.

(June 28, 2014 at 7:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: I see God in EVERYTHING! You see Him in NOTHING.

I see him in nothing because I don't assume by default a being which I have yet to see any evidence for.

(June 29, 2014 at 1:27 am)Irrational Wrote:

(June 28, 2014 at 7:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: I see God in EVERYTHING! You see Him in NOTHING.

I see him in nothing because I don't assume by default a being which I have yet to see any evidence for.

"yet"

So what -was- the word on that anyway? Did the hospital confirm to you that equipment materialized? Did you witness the materialization?

(June 28, 2014 at 8:06 pm)ronedee Wrote:

(June 28, 2014 at 8:01 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Well, I'm not sure that doubling down on miracles is really the best way to go about demonstrating that -even one- miracle actually occurred. I would like to see, when you say things like "you see" but I just don't. I can't even begin to analyze this claim because it's being put out as an empty shell.

"Miracles and stuff happen, to people, you know, like things that are hard to explain, nothing in particular...but alot of the time......"

Can you see why this might be confusing?

Sure I can.

But if I told you my mother died of a heart attack, and the hospital needed a "special" machine (that was lent to a nearby hospital) that starts the heart from inside the body,just appeared in her room and she came back to life.... would you then believe in God?

Would that change your mind about anything?

I'd need more details about this if I ever were to change my mind. So far, it is easy to think of some naturalistic explanation for the scenario you only briefly described. Who told you she died at that point? You probably answered this later on, but if not, I'd like to know.

By the way, did you know memory tends to be reconstructive? And that, rather than describing some fading photograph we supposedly have in our mind, we actually recall by reconstructing the event as we fit in all the details according to certain schemas that have been established in our mind through past experience and prior knowledge.

If this is true, one can see why memory can be very unreliable at times.

Also, as a point of curiosity, what sorts of equipment do you imagine might be eligible for that sort of magical treatment. I'm guessing little things on wheels, defibs, ivs and the like. What about MRI's...do you think that god might have transported a few of those here and there? I only ask, because I think it would be impossible to miss something like that - even if you might miss something like a defib.