(July 1, 2014 at 11:07 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: I'm sorry... what are you arguing then? You use things as if they're arguments, then say they're not your arguments.

Can you summarize what you are arguing for/against? It's getting very confusing.

I never intended to argue for anything, then I started arguing defending people's right to objection of conscience. I manifested myself supporting legalization and liberalization of abortion (I don't know about the ethics though, I rather not think about it for now), but showed my disrespect towards my government making abortion free and contraceptives costly.

The only opinion I made that was not an argument was when I said 'I know plenty of med students that are not ethical Ok with abortion. But I never used it as an argument, I just stated an opinion some med students share, known by me as a result of personal social experiences.

I never intended to argue much further in this, I just did it because I disagreed with losty regarding people's fundamental rights and conscience of objection. That divergence is already settled.

Maybe since english is not my native language I sometimes still fail to express my thoughts correctly or at least as accurately as I wanted them to be.

(July 1, 2014 at 4:37 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Blackout, you can decide in your head all day long what's ethical, but when it comes to the act of actually going out and getting an abortion, the pregnant woman is the only one who should have the right to decide. I stand by that.

In a society where we've somehow decided that abortion should be up for a vote, I also hold the unpopular view that men shouldn't be allowed to vote on it. Would you want women voting on the legality of circumcision? I think circumcision is genital mutilation and that it's a practice that should be stopped immediately, but I don't think I should get a vote in the matter.

I'll have to disagree on this. Infant/children circumcision is not comparable to abortion. These infants/children don't have a choice in the matter and did not ask to be circumcised, so it is every adult's business to speak against this matter (man and woman). Only adults should have the right to decide to have circumcision for themselves (not children).

(July 1, 2014 at 11:32 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 4:37 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Blackout, you can decide in your head all day long what's ethical, but when it comes to the act of actually going out and getting an abortion, the pregnant woman is the only one who should have the right to decide. I stand by that.

In a society where we've somehow decided that abortion should be up for a vote, I also hold the unpopular view that men shouldn't be allowed to vote on it. Would you want women voting on the legality of circumcision? I think circumcision is genital mutilation and that it's a practice that should be stopped immediately, but I don't think I should get a vote in the matter.

I'll have to disagree on this. Infant/children circumcision is not comparable to abortion. These infants/children don't have a choice in the matter and did not ask to be circumcised, so it is every adult's business to speak against this matter (man and woman). Only adults should have the right to decide to have circumcision for themselves (not children).

Sigh.

Ok.

I'm not arguing this. If you'd like, I'll come up with a better analogy. I think the gist of what I was trying to say is there.

(July 1, 2014 at 11:37 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 11:32 pm)Irrational Wrote: I'll have to disagree on this. Infant/children circumcision is not comparable to abortion. These infants/children don't have a choice in the matter and did not ask to be circumcised, so it is every adult's business to speak against this matter (man and woman). Only adults should have the right to decide to have circumcision for themselves (not children).

Sigh.

Ok.

I'm not arguing this. If you'd like, I'll come up with a better analogy. I think the gist of what I was trying to say is there.

This one matters to me, sorry.

(July 1, 2014 at 11:15 pm)blackout94 Wrote:

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(July 1, 2014 at 11:07 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: I'm sorry... what are you arguing then? You use things as if they're arguments, then say they're not your arguments.

Can you summarize what you are arguing for/against? It's getting very confusing.

I never intended to argue for anything, then I started arguing defending people's right to objection of conscience. I manifested myself supporting legalization and liberalization of abortion (I don't know about the ethics though, I rather not think about it for now), but showed my disrespect towards my government making abortion free and contraceptives costly.

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The only opinion I made that was not an argument was when I said 'I know plenty of med students that are not ethical Ok with abortion. But I never used it as an argument, I just stated an opinion some med students share, known by me as a result of personal social experiences.

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I never intended to argue much further in this, I just did it because I disagreed with losty regarding people's fundamental rights and conscience of objection. That divergence is already settled.

Maybe since english is not my native language I sometimes still fail to express my thoughts correctly or at least as accurately as I wanted them to be.

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What was the point of adding that if you weren't trying to make a point? Sound argumentation has nothing to do with language barriers, and to be honest, your English is a lot better than some native speakers' here.

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(July 1, 2014 at 11:40 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 11:37 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Sigh.

Ok.

I'm not arguing this. If you'd like, I'll come up with a better analogy. I think the gist of what I was trying to say is there.

This one matters to me, sorry.

No, that's ok. I'm just a little mentally exhausted on the abortion topic. I would love to know more about circumcision if you'd like to start a thread about it. I can definitely see it becoming a pet issue for me.

You guys have fun in the circumcision thread if you start it. I'm not touching that one. Those debates get heated and personal faster than abortion/rape/gun thread all rolled into one. Forget that.

(July 1, 2014 at 7:07 pm)blackout94 Wrote: Teenagers are unable to celebrate business like it or not. A teenager can only celebrate a business with parents' consent. This is mostly due to maturity. A teenager cannot celebrate a contract buying a house or opening a business because they are not mature enough according to the law and are dependent on their parents money for everything, they mostly don't have autonomy nor money of their own to perform such actions

I don't think celebrate means what you think it means.

(July 2, 2014 at 12:45 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 7:07 pm)blackout94 Wrote: Teenagers are unable to celebrate business like it or not. A teenager can only celebrate a business with parents' consent. This is mostly due to maturity. A teenager cannot celebrate a contract buying a house or opening a business because they are not mature enough according to the law and are dependent on their parents money for everything, they mostly don't have autonomy nor money of their own to perform such actions

I don't think celebrate means what you think it means.

Haha, Portuguese word with multiple meanings, translated to one of the meanings in English... Not the correct one, I guess. :p

Abortion in Portugal is a fairly new business, and "old school" doctors are still practicing. This, I guess, is the main reason why "objection of conscience" is allowed for abortion cases.
Of course, this also gives new doctors leeway for such objections and thus the system gets perpetuated... sometimes, evolution sucks.

(July 2, 2014 at 12:26 am)Losty Wrote: You guys have fun in the circumcision thread if you start it. I'm not touching that one. Those debates get heated and personal faster than abortion/rape/gun thread all rolled into one. Forget that.

To be honest, I don't see the need for one at this point. But maybe sometimes in the future, or if someone else creates a new thread on that one, then I'll participate.

(July 1, 2014 at 11:37 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: [quote='Irrational' pid='699909' dateline='1404271965']

I'll have to disagree on this. Infant/children circumcision is not comparable to abortion. These infants/children don't have a choice in the matter and did not ask to be circumcised, so it is every adult's business to speak against this matter (man and woman). Only adults should have the right to decide to have circumcision for themselves (not children).

Sigh.

Ok.

I'm not arguing this. If you'd like, I'll come up with a better analogy. I think the gist of what I was trying to say is there.
[/quote]

Each case is a case, circumcisions is one thing and abortion is another, we should discuss each topic by itself without starting comparisons to justify each point, each issue should have it's own arguments, comparison can be used but too much can be fallacious. I think circumcision as a grown up decisions should be completely legal, the question of doing it when a child is born or a minor (at least at a very young age) is very doubtful however, from a legal standpoint. But some males like being circumcised

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(July 2, 2014 at 12:45 am)bennyboy Wrote: [quote='blackout94' pid='699777' dateline='1404256076']
Teenagers are unable to celebrate business like it or not. A teenager can only celebrate a business with parents' consent. This is mostly due to maturity. A teenager cannot celebrate a contract buying a house or opening a business because they are not mature enough according to the law and are dependent on their parents money for everything, they mostly don't have autonomy nor money of their own to perform such actions

I don't think celebrate means what you think it means.
[/quote]

Well a minor cannot validly celebrate a common business without consent of the guardians. If I am 16 years old and want to celebrate/consent/elaborate/sign (whatever the word we use) a contract I am not legally able to do so, since my maturity has yet not reached is level. The only businesses minors are legally allowed to celebrate are the small ones needed for their daily lives (eg buying snacks with their parents money) or the ones they can do because they've earned a salary from working (here minors can work from 16 if the parents permit).

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(July 1, 2014 at 11:42 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: [quote='blackout94' pid='699902' dateline='1404270920']

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I never intended to argue for anything, then I started arguing defending people's right to objection of conscience. I manifested myself supporting legalization and liberalization of abortion (I don't know about the ethics though, I rather not think about it for now), but showed my disrespect towards my government making abortion free and contraceptives costly.

---

The only opinion I made that was not an argument was when I said 'I know plenty of med students that are not ethical Ok with abortion. But I never used it as an argument, I just stated an opinion some med students share, known by me as a result of personal social experiences.

---

I never intended to argue much further in this, I just did it because I disagreed with losty regarding people's fundamental rights and conscience of objection. That divergence is already settled.

Maybe since english is not my native language I sometimes still fail to express my thoughts correctly or at least as accurately as I wanted them to be.

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Quote:What was the point of adding that if you weren't trying to make a point? Sound argumentation has nothing to do with language barriers, and to be honest, your English is a lot better than some native speakers' here.
[quote]

I've already argued my full opinion on this while discussing with losty, you've certainly read it since you said you agree partially with the opinion that people 'should not go against their moral conscience', feel free to ask any questions. I'm tired of discussing this topic, it is so volatile that will always lead to major discussions. I think I'll go criticize theist arguments now, sounds more fun.

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(July 2, 2014 at 3:46 am)pocaracas Wrote: [quote='bennyboy' pid='699931' dateline='1404276314']
I don't think celebrate means what you think it means.

Haha, Portuguese word with multiple meanings, translated to one of the meanings in English... Not the correct one, I guess. :p

Abortion in Portugal is a fairly new business, and "old school" doctors are still practicing. This, I guess, is the main reason why "objection of conscience" is allowed for abortion cases.
Of course, this also gives new doctors leeway for such objections and thus the system gets perpetuated... sometimes, evolution sucks.

But I have never heard of a woman getting killed because she got a an abortion refused. I read some legislation about it, here's how it works - Abortion is legal and free up to 10/12 weeks, more if there a serious malformation of the fetus. Any doctor can object to practice an abortion, as long as he writes it down and signs the papers, he then needs to be coherent with behavior, in other words, he cannot then perform abortions since that would be unethical contradicting behavior, it's the same of someone refusing to go to the army serving because he/she hates guns and then going to practice a sports that requires mainly on gun usage.

I guess hospitals and facilities probably designate the professionals for the occasion that they already know are appropriated for abortion.

Now directed at you pocaracas, did you know our prime minister thought of making abortion costly? In other words, we all pay for free healthcare a symbolic amount, maybe 5€ for consults and appointments, and poor people don't pay anything, it's never 100%. Abortion is 100% free but they thought of eliminating that privilege trough making it pay as much as other procedures have to pay too by a matter of equality.

Not all new school doctors are against abortion, there will always be some ok, some against, some that are not ok, as long as we have people to perform it, it will not become a problem. Live I've already said forcing people is not the answer according to human rights.