(July 7, 2014 at 11:46 am)Chad32 Wrote: While I don't think you could be accused of first degree murder if you're standing nearby when one person murders another, you will still be accused of a crime if you do nothing while having the power to do something.

There may be a difference, but it isn't a big difference. Not that god has never caused an evil event. There are many things in the bible, directly caused by Yahweh, that most people would consider evil.

We are not in a good position to assess the probability of whether God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evils that occur. As an example, under Chaos theory, large systems are sensitive to the smallest fluctuation. A butterfly flapping its wings might produce a hurricane 10,000 miles away. The same applies to any single event in human history. From a perspective only available to God, there is no way to see how allowing any event OR intervening in any event will affect other events.

You might be mistaken in what Christians believe as it relates to this subject.
a. We have free will to chose or reject God and are therefore capable of evil.
b. The chief purpose of life is not happiness, but the knowledge of God.
c. Mankind is in a state of rebellion against God and His purpose. The human caused evil in the world is a clear example of the consequences of such a state.
d. God has an eternal perspective beyond our rather short existence on earth.

Alternatively, I'm sure you have all heard that if God does not exist, there would be no basis for moral absolutes and therefore nothing could really be good or evil. Even more disturbing is that free will is an illusion and everything that happens is determined by your molecules--further destroying the argument that good and evil exists.

Quote:Alternatively, I'm sure you have all heard that if God does not exist, there would be no basis for moral absolutes and therefore nothing could really be good or evil.

Non seq.

Quote:Even more disturbing is that free will is an illusion and everything that happens is determined by your molecules--further destroying the argument that good and evil exists.

Non seq.

(July 7, 2014 at 12:21 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(July 7, 2014 at 11:46 am)Chad32 Wrote: While I don't think you could be accused of first degree murder if you're standing nearby when one person murders another, you will still be accused of a crime if you do nothing while having the power to do something.

There may be a difference, but it isn't a big difference. Not that god has never caused an evil event. There are many things in the bible, directly caused by Yahweh, that most people would consider evil.

We are not in a good position to assess the probability of whether God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evils that occur. As an example, under Chaos theory, large systems are sensitive to the smallest fluctuation. A butterfly flapping its wings might produce a hurricane 10,000 miles away. The same applies to any single event in human history. From a perspective only available to God, there is no way to see how allowing any event OR intervening in any event will affect other events.

You might be mistaken in what Christians believe as it relates to this subject.
a. We have free will to chose or reject God and are therefore capable of evil.
b. The chief purpose of life is not happiness, but the knowledge of God.
c. Mankind is in a state of rebellion against God and His purpose. The human caused evil in the world is a clear example of the consequences of such a state.
d. God has an eternal perspective beyond our rather short existence on earth.

Alternatively, I'm sure you have all heard that if God does not exist, there would be no basis for moral absolutes and therefore nothing could really be good or evil. Even more disturbing is that free will is an illusion and everything that happens is determined by your molecules--further destroying the argument that good and evil exists.

Yes, but you still need to give a legitimate explanation of such things if anyone is to believe what you did was a good action. Instead we have cause to believe that Yahweh's opinions on good and evil seem to coincide with contemporary human morality. The Isrealites didn't think slavery was bad, except when it came to them, so the deity they worshiped devastated Egypt because they enslaved people, but also allowed the Isrealites to own slaves. Now that we live in a modern era where slavery is highly illegal, you have people saying that Yahweh never really promoted slavery. What a funny thing that is.

I just don't see how it's possible to believe someone is good, despite actions that would normally be considered evil. If you want to make excuses for him, that's fine, but I don't. I won't just assume that he's good without evidence.

Societies change. The opinions of what good and evil are change with them. Time and time again people who refuse to change are eventually ignored or ostracized because they are too set in what they believe. The same can be said of anyone. America has a long history of fighting for equal rights because time and time again people convince others that treating one person the same as another is good. So saying your book says homosexuality is bad just doesn't cut it anymore. It also says that women should be subservient, and slavery is fine, and those two ideas have been/are being cast aside every day.

Quote:You might be mistaken in what Christians believe as it relates to this subject.

There are in excess of 30,000 sects of xtians. Which one are you claiming has the unvarnished truth?

(July 7, 2014 at 12:46 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:You might be mistaken in what Christians believe as it relates to this subject.

There are in excess of 30,000 sects of xtians. Which one are you claiming has the unvarnished truth?

It seems you might be trying to make a point that there is so much disagreement, we need 30,000 sects--and don't really want to know what church I go to. There are many reasons why a group of churches might want to govern their own affairs. There are only a couple of dozen meaningful divisions. The rest are geography, polity, ethnic/cultural, and small things that don't affect the basics.

I am not Catholic, so I am not using Catholic beliefs in my arguments

Only a couple dozen you say? Well that's not so bad. I mean, whats 24 different reasons to kill/harrass/impede/persecute/dehumanize your fellow man based upon the contents of a bedtime story....... between you, me, and the wall?

Quote:There are only a couple of dozen meaningful divisions.

Rather presumptuous of you. Who died and made you pope?

I, at least, think ALL jesus freaks are nutty. Therefore such distinctions as "true christian" are meaningless. You are all welcome to such a dishonorable title.

(July 7, 2014 at 1:12 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(July 7, 2014 at 12:46 pm)Minimalist Wrote: There are in excess of 30,000 sects of xtians. Which one are you claiming has the unvarnished truth?

It seems you might be trying to make a point that there is so much disagreement, we need 30,000 sects--and don't really want to know what church I go to. There are many reasons why a group of churches might want to govern their own affairs. There are only a couple of dozen meaningful divisions. The rest are geography, polity, ethnic/cultural, and small things that don't affect the basics.

I am not Catholic, so I am not using Catholic beliefs in my arguments

The fact that there are any divisions at all tell me that Jesus isn't really talking to anyone. Catholics and Protestants killing each other across Europe over how to follow the same guy, and their god just sits back and watches. Thousands of years of studying the bible, and christians are no closer to finding the truth.

(July 7, 2014 at 1:42 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Thousands of years of studying the bible, and christians are no closer to finding the truth.

You're unlikely to find "truth" if you look in a place where it is absent, no matter how long you keep at it. eh?

(July 7, 2014 at 2:00 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(July 7, 2014 at 1:42 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Thousands of years of studying the bible, and christians are no closer to finding the truth.

You're unlikely to find "truth" if you look in a place where it is absent, no matter how long you keep at it. eh?

This is why they have to resort to killing people, and the worst sin is apparently blasphemy. Otherwise this kind of thing would have died a long time ago. Even then it's still dying in first world countries.