(July 11, 2014 at 11:27 pm)Lek Wrote: Why do I have to keep repeating this over and over? How about the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and Cambodia. I've only mentioned these examples a zillion times before. I'd suggest starting in North Korea.

Pop quizz! How many of those places are doing what they did for atheism? And not, say, for some other, politically motivated reason that finds its source in an unconnected topic?

So, blaming that on atheism would roughly be the same as blaming a murder that happened in an argument over an affair on christianity, because the murderer was a christian. Do you often completely ignore the real motivations of acts when it's convenient to you, Lek?

Oh, and don't bore us all by saying we do the same thing: the Crusades and a lot of the other examples we bring up were specifically religiously motivated.

(July 11, 2014 at 11:40 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Nor are China, North Korea, or Cambodia behaving nearly as badly and Catholics did during the crusades or the inquisition, or either the Catholics or the Protestants did during and after the reformation.

Please give me a break! What atrocities did the crusaders commit that were worse than what has gone in these nations? You left out the USSR, by the way.

(July 12, 2014 at 12:19 pm)Lek Wrote:

(July 11, 2014 at 11:40 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Nor are China, North Korea, or Cambodia behaving nearly as badly and Catholics did during the crusades or the inquisition, or either the Catholics or the Protestants did during and after the reformation.

Please give me a break! What atrocities did the crusaders commit that were worse than what has gone in these nations? You left out the USSR, by the way.

Please respond to esquilax's post. The claims about atheism being the motivating force for those atrocities are old, dishonest, and have been illustrated to be crap by anyone with an understanding of history.

(July 11, 2014 at 11:59 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(July 11, 2014 at 11:27 pm)Lek Wrote: Why do I have to keep repeating this over and over? How about the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and Cambodia. I've only mentioned these examples a zillion times before. I'd suggest starting in North Korea.

Pop quizz! How many of those places are doing what they did for atheism? And not, say, for some other, politically motivated reason that finds its source in an unconnected topic?

So, blaming that on atheism would roughly be the same as blaming a murder that happened in an argument over an affair on christianity, because the murderer was a christian. Do you often completely ignore the real motivations of acts when it's convenient to you, Lek?

Oh, and don't bore us all by saying we do the same thing: the Crusades and a lot of the other examples we bring up were specifically religiously motivated.

You guys always go back to that argument, but when I bring up the same argument for Hitler and others, you attempt to tear it down. Who cares what reason people use to accomplish their means? Nationalism has been used as an excuse for imperialism forever. Does that mean that we should abolish all all nations or that all nations are evil? If a tyrannical dictator wants to accomplish his aims, he will use whatever means he feels will work. These communist leaders were and are convinced that people of faith are standing in the way of their plan for total control over the masses. I thought that becoming atheist put one above this type of mentality. I always hear that christianity is evil because of all the bad things that were done in its name. It's a bogus argument for defaming christianity.

(July 12, 2014 at 12:19 pm)Lek Wrote:

(July 11, 2014 at 11:40 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Nor are China, North Korea, or Cambodia behaving nearly as badly and Catholics did during the crusades or the inquisition, or either the Catholics or the Protestants did during and after the reformation.

Please give me a break! What atrocities did the crusaders commit that were worse than what has gone in these nations? You left out the USSR, by the way.

The inquisition was part of a totalitarian regime in Spain and it lead unspeakable torture followed by burning people to death whether they'd confessed or not. Further, torture could only be abated by naming more heretics. And it was done in the name of Christianity for the purpose of furthering Christianity.

Never have atheists burned each other for sectarian differences or committed atrocities in the name of atheism.

I repeat, how are you being persecuted? That is the claim that began this spat of regime naming.

(July 12, 2014 at 12:34 pm)Lek Wrote:

(July 11, 2014 at 11:59 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Pop quizz! How many of those places are doing what they did for atheism? And not, say, for some other, politically motivated reason that finds its source in an unconnected topic?

So, blaming that on atheism would roughly be the same as blaming a murder that happened in an argument over an affair on christianity, because the murderer was a christian. Do you often completely ignore the real motivations of acts when it's convenient to you, Lek?

Oh, and don't bore us all by saying we do the same thing: the Crusades and a lot of the other examples we bring up were specifically religiously motivated.

You guys always go back to that argument, but when I bring up the same argument for Hitler and others, you attempt to tear it down. Who cares what reason people use to accomplish their means? Nationalism has been used as an excuse for imperialism forever. Does that mean that we should abolish all all nations or that all nations are evil? If a tyrannical dictator wants to accomplish his aims, he will use whatever means he feels will work. These communist leaders were and are convinced that people of faith are standing in the way of their plan for total control over the masses. I thought that becoming atheist put one above this type of mentality. I always hear that christianity is evil because of all the bad things that were done in its name. It's a bogus argument for defaming christianity.

Just a quick little point that you seem utterly determined to misunderstand. Atheism is not a damn belief system or philosophy. It is literally not accepting claims about the existence of god, and that's it. Atheists can be communists, capitalists, libertarians, masochists, humanitarians, murderers, surgeons, charity owners, thieves, judges and criminals. Atheism is not a set of beliefs or statements or assertions or doctrines that also provide a book full of justification for just about anything with God's approval (like say...Christianity). I don't know how many times this point has been made to you. Atheism doesn't provide justification or endorsement for anything other than not believing a god exists. That's it. Very simple.

Quote:how are you being persecuted?

In the same way that he's being "saved". It's just one of those pious things that christians have been claiming forever, the continuation of a foundational myth.

(July 12, 2014 at 12:46 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Just a quick little point that you seem utterly determined to misunderstand. Atheism is not a damn belief system or philosophy. It is literally not accepting claims about the existence of god, and that's it. Atheists can be communists, capitalists, libertarians, masochists, humanitarians, murderers, surgeons, charity owners, thieves, judges and criminals. Atheism is not a set of beliefs or statements or assertions or doctrines that also provide a book full of justification for just about anything with God's approval (like say...Christianity). I don't know how many times this point has been made to you. Atheism doesn't provide justification or endorsement for anything other than not believing a god exists. That's it. Very simple.

I don't misunderstand your point. I'm showing that atrocities are committed by atheists. Atrocities are also committed by christians and other theists. The christians who committed atrocities were not doing so because they were christians. They were not following christianity. People who say they are christians can be communists, capitalists, libertarians, masochists, humanitarians, murderers, surgeons, charity owners, thieves, judges and criminals. Christianity does not provide justification or endorsement for atrocities against mankind. If you take away christianity these people will find another excuse.

---

(July 12, 2014 at 12:44 pm)Jenny A Wrote: I repeat, how are you being persecuted? That is the claim that began this spat of regime naming.

If you go back you will see that I did mention how I was being persecuted. I encounter daily hostility from my wife specifically because I'm a christian. I give money to the church and won't do certain things that she wants me to do. I never said that I was suffering extreme persecution. Look up the definition of persecution.

(July 12, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't misunderstand your point. I'm showing that atrocities are committed by atheists. Atrocities are also committed by christians and other theists. The christians who committed atrocities were not doing so because they were christians. They were not following christianity. People who say they are christians can be communists, capitalists, libertarians, masochists, humanitarians, murderers, surgeons, charity owners, thieves, judges and criminals. Christianity does not provide justification or endorsement for atrocities against mankind. If you take away christianity these people will find another excuse.

I don't think that's always the case. In the absence of religion---and I do mean religion generally not just Christianity (or true Christianity whatever that might be)--- bad people will do bad things and good people will do good things. But religion manages to give good people the motivation to do bad things. But for religion, I don't think 9-11 would have occurred. The suicide bomber is a product of religion.

Christians may not be currently blowing themselves up or burning people at the stake, but they are motivated to picket the funerals of gay servicemen, a thing I don't think the picketers would ever do without religion.

What's dangerous is both believing in god AND thinking you know what he wants.

(July 12, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Lek Wrote: If you go back you will see that I did mention how I was being persecuted. I encounter daily hostility from my wife specifically because I'm a christian. I give money to the church and won't do certain things that she wants me to do. I never said that I was suffering extreme persecution. Look up the definition of persecution.

Hmm, I think that's so minimal as to not count, like calling a splinter an injury (which it technically is). Besides, what you have there is disagreement about a shared resources. Couldn't she too claim to be persecuted?

(July 12, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Lek Wrote: The christians who committed atrocities were not doing so because they were christians. They were not following christianity.

That's of course totally wrong. States that declared "atheism" as the "official religion" (that's exactly what it became, the State a Communist church) were not promoting any ideology that is inextricably linked or logically follows from the term "atheist."

You can't say that about the Church-States of Christianity that ruled the Middle Ages. There is no sense in talking about what "logically follows" from Scripture as it's all open to vastly contradicting interpretations, the only way to solve that conundrum by having an official Church, which directly led to the violence. Their actions against heretics were largely viewed as consistent with their Christian faith, especially given that outside of the "rulers" "God appoints" to ensure justice (and what's more just than slaying the infidel before he corrupts more souls?) there is no one to offer an "official" interpretation of Scripture. Killing, hatred against non-believers, suppression of dissent, and the like is inextricably linked to the "Good Book."