Just thought we needed a place to continue the discussion someplace which won't cause our busy mods any bother.

When we last left that thread Jenny had just read through the whole thing and was wondering if there was any there there apart from the penis jokes. Creed of Heresy answers.

(July 12, 2014 at 11:13 am)Jenny A Wrote: Ok, so I just read most of this before discovering it's from 2012. Other than the penis jokes, was there ever a point?

(July 12, 2014 at 12:58 pm)ShaMan Wrote:

(August 11, 2012 at 1:04 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: The problem with we humans is that we are not animals...

I reiterate, to get back on point; humans are not animals...

Not so.

Creed of Heresy Wrote:So. Rape. Is it natural to humans?

No. No it is not.

Agreed.

To put aside the penis jokes for the moment, I would say rape is at least as natural as killing. It is likewise frowned upon and dealt with pretty severely in most places by law. So its being natural is not to say it is okay in any sense. It happens but we don't approve.

Oddly there are places which treat as extenuating circumstances what is referred to as an 'honor killing'. The enforcement of laws against rape has a sketchy history. Sometimes the victim is made to feel like the criminal and there are times when the victim's manner of dress or behavior is challenged as inviting rape.

There had been a poll associated with the earlier thread. I never was interested in that one much. I don't think anyone will mind if you go back to the original thread to vote if you like. That shouldn't wake the dead thread. You can find it here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-14248-page-14.html

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Oh, but I should say I don't agree that we humans are not animals because biology. But natural or not our sense of justice demands retribution by way of the legal system if you decide to get your natural on with someone who says no.

I think Tiberius pretty much hit the nail on the head.

(August 12, 2012 at 9:09 am)Tiberius Wrote: Is rape natural? As opposed to what? Supernatural? Unnatural? Artificial? What exactly are "unnatural" things anyway? Humans can't fly on their own, but we can if we use other (natural) materials to form wings. Is that natural?

I'd argue that everything is natural, but natural things are viewed (by society) as good or evil. Rape is viewed by most as evil. So is psychopathy, sociopathy, etc. I think most people use the word "unnatural" as a placeholder for "evil", since they operate under the assumption that most people are "good", and therefore being "good" is a natural state. For a moral relativist such as myself, that argument is baseless. There is no "good" and "evil", and there is no "unnatural". The word "natural" is superfluous; it applies to everything that exists.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-14248-po...#pid322327

Animals aren't people but people are only animals.

Okay before I say anything let me just tell you all that I do NOT condone rape. Now for the question of is rape natural? Well in some ways yes. In the animal kingdom animals do not verbally consent to sex, the way that mating occures in almost every animal species is that during the mating season hormones are released by both the male and femals telling each others that they want to mate. They don't ask for a specific mate they just want A mate. In most mammals it is also the males duty to iniciate the mating such as chasing her, tracking her down, mounting her, and then mating with her. Since humans are nothing more then advanced mammals it makes sense that this same procedure would be deeply embedded in our brains. This is why many humans are able to have sex with people who they do not love, or people who they are not in a relationship with. I also think that this is the reason that the "Rape Fantasy" is so common in females. Basically the rape fantasy is a fantasy that many females have where they would just like a dominant man to come in and ravish her. So in conclusion sex should ALWAYS be consensual but rape is just as natural as the blue sky, thats why rape fantasy, and bdsm is so common.

Rape is as natural as me picking my nose. Doesn't mean I should be doing it.

(July 12, 2014 at 3:00 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Rape is as natural as me picking my nose. Doesn't mean I should be doing it.

Well isn't murder natural too?

(July 12, 2014 at 3:22 pm)Blackout Wrote:

(July 12, 2014 at 3:00 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Rape is as natural as me picking my nose. Doesn't mean I should be doing it.

Well isn't murder natural too?

Yep.

(July 12, 2014 at 2:44 pm)MagetheEntertainer Wrote: In the animal kingdom animals do not verbally consent to sex, the way that mating occures in almost every animal species is that during the mating season hormones are released by both the male and femals telling each others that they want to mate. They don't ask for a specific mate they just want A mate. In most mammals it is also the males duty to iniciate the mating such as chasing her, tracking her down, mounting her, and then mating with her. Since humans are nothing more then advanced mammals it makes sense that this same procedure would be deeply embedded in our brains.

There is no one script which every mammal follows regarding sex. For some - thinking now of seals and the like - the dominant male carves out as big a swath of the beach as he can hold, and spreads his genes as widely as he can passing on his winning genes in the process. But that is not the model for all mammals. Not by a long shot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sexual_behaviour

Animals which live in social groups where the care of the young involves the input of more than just the mother, have more complex behaviors. Humans certainly fall into this category and not that of mammals which only gather for mating.

Also, I wouldn't make too much of humans being 'advanced' mammals. We are specialized in the human direction whereas other mammals are specialized in other directions. Other mammals don't come up short in the human direction; that simply isn't the direction their evolution is advancing in.

Nothing is more unnatural than medicine. If we all lived "naturally," most of us probably wouldn't make (or have made) it beyond our 40s, or worse, child birth.

(July 12, 2014 at 3:24 pm)Insanity Wrote:

(July 12, 2014 at 3:22 pm)Blackout Wrote: Well isn't murder natural too?

Yep.

Why wouldn't it be?