(June 10, 2010 at 11:48 pm)Dotard Wrote: Bullshit. I can't help to think you know what he is refering to. Gay men with the girlly, lispy speech. And the mannerisms (<--sp?), the limpy wristed 'you go girl' mannerism.

It's not an accent. As Loki said, it's an affectation, often exaggerated to be a staple of gay men by social media. None of my gay friends are like that.

(June 10, 2010 at 11:48 pm)Dotard Wrote: Cry me a river. i'm treated terribly socially, so are black folks, so are chinese, so are white people, so are midgets, so are alcoholics, so are puppy kickers, so are mexicans, so are sexist bastards.

And when did I say otherwise? I never said Gay people suffer the most out of any minority group. Each have their own challenges to face that are unique to their situation. What I said is still a fact. Gay people are constantly put down and denied rights.

(June 10, 2010 at 11:48 pm)Dotard Wrote: So are single people.

I want equal rights to adopt a child also. I'm single, never married, by choice.
I want the same rates for auto insurance as married people get.
I want to pay the same fucking income tax rate as married people. Why should I end up paying more because I'm single?

You are comparing apples and oranges here. These issues are so far apart, it's absurd. I'm talking about the challenges gay people face, I'm not comparing them, because you can't compare them.

(June 10, 2010 at 11:48 pm)Dotard Wrote: I want special laws and punishments doled out against those who commit crimes against me just because I'm..........me.

I have stated before many times that I don't support hate crime legislation.

(June 10, 2010 at 11:48 pm)Dotard Wrote: What?! You, yourself said "There's white privilege, male privilege, straight privilege, etc... Simply put, it describes the social phenomena you experience as a person depending on what privileges you have based on your gender, race, orientation, etc... That people who have the privilege may not necessarily notice but do take advantage of, and that people without privilege deal constantly with the disadvantages."

That's everybody. According to what I believe your thought process was here there also is gay privilege, midget privilege, woman privilege, whomever privilege.

I'm male, white, single, heterosexual. I have found no 'privileges' in life based on those things. If I was a single female with children then that would afford me special privileges. Kicking back at home on the governments dime. So it's all relative Elio, what you may call a disadvantage I may call an advantage.

No, there is no such thing as Gay privilege, female privilege, etc... The privilege I am referring to here is a sociological phenomena that is well studied about what advantages certain groups of people receive as an accident of being born into the favored race, gender, etc.... It's no secret that white is the favored race, male the favored gender, and heterosexuality that favored sexuality and these groups gain benefits from society. That doesn't mean people who have those privileges are sitting pretty in their castle. Every individual has their own individual advantages and disadvantages, sure. I never argued against that. But there is a sociological structure of privilege that promotes white, heterosexual men. If you think otherwise, then you're arguing against a well known and studied sociological concepts and historical fact.

Here is an article that delves into social privilege and discusses specifically it's relation to race, gender, and sexuality. I'll pull out some of the important bits and bolded the really important lines.

Quote:SOCIAL PRIVILEGE
The complex and intricate relationship between privilege and oppression has led us to a definition of privilege that is more inclusive and intricate. We define social privilege as any entitlement, sanction, power, immunity, and advantage or right granted or conferred by the dominant group to a person or group solely by birthright membership in prescribed identities. Social privilege is expressed through some combination of the following domains: race/ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, SES, age, differing degrees of ableness, and religious affiliation.

RACIAL
The tenets of racial privilege are rooted in historical White supremacy that permeates society in the United States. The term historical White supremacy, as it is used here, means that being "White" has been and is viewed as culturally valued and the norm against which all other races are evaluated. In the United States, racially privileged status is rooted in the patriotic ideal that "all men are created equal" and "possess certain inalienable rights." These two phrases provided the foundation for the belief that this was an equitable and just society. Upon closer examination, the ideal is tarnished when one acknowledges that "all men" meant only male Euro-Americans. Therefore, the benefits, rights and privileges were given as a birthright only to male Euro-Americans. Indigenous persons, enslaved Africans, and female Euro-Americans were prohibited from equality and justice before the law.

GENDER
Gender privilege is based on a perceived difference (e.g., what women lack in relation to men). Stereotypic male attributes are viewed as desirable and the norm (e.g., being rational, logical, assertive, dominant), whereas stereotypic female attributes are viewed as less desirable, and many are considered undesirable (e.g., being emotional, nurturing, submissive). Men were granted financial, career, and gender role benefits and rewards that were greater than those given to their female counterparts who had similar training and experience (Weis & Fine, 1996). Men have been and continue to be viewed as the more valued, more powerful, and more influential members of U.S. society.

SEXUALITY
Similar to privileges based on race or ethnicity, heterosexual privilege is based on an essentialist meaning of difference and oppression. Heterosexuality is viewed as the normative expression of sexual orientation, and any orientation that differs or varies from this expression is unnatural, deviant, and wrong. Discussions regarding heterosexual privilege have differed from discussion of other types of privilege in that they are typically much more intense, vitriolic, and volatile. These discussions are often filled with religious and moral admonitions. One may happen to be born Black, or poor, or with a disability; these conditions cannot be changed, yet, as Blumenfeld (1992) suggested, despite the existence of homosexuality throughout history, it is currently viewed by the media, schools, and society as a choice and something that can and must be changed.

Notice how privilege is based on a dominant groups, and within those subsets of groups, the privilege is based on what historically has been considered favored. Thus, there is no "Gay Privilege".

As I said, that doesn't mean white, straight, men have perfect lives. That's not what social privilege is about, it's larger sociological concept that refers to how the groups are treated as a whole.

Quote:What gay accent? There is no such thing.

That's the third time now (that I've been told there is no accent). Then I must be mistaken, my apologies.

Quote:Where the fuck have you been living? Homosexuality is not revered in the least.

Canada, some New York and North Carolina... Up here in Canada homosexuality is revered. By the media and the progressive people, although a lot of us little people are still uncomfortable with it (or it's reverence). The Times did an article this week about the fact that lesbians make better parents than a straight couple. Reverence.

Quote:Too many people think as you do. Too many people hate gays and try to take away their basic civil rights.

I think you are missing some of what I am saying. I certainly do not "hate gays", that is horrible. I find open sexuality of any kind uncomfortable, but do find open homosexuality a little grosser. But if you are allowed to be born gay, I am allowed to be born uncomfortable with gayness. The important part is that I will never hurt, hate, or discriminate based on sexual preference (a strange choice of words, no?). But to refer to my opinions and honest self examination as hatred, and put me on par with people who hurt others is unfair to the extreme.

Quote:Gays are constantly put down and hated.

I'm with dotard, every one has it hard, stop whining. In my experience there are far worse things to be than gay. A drug addict social radical. I get mine too sweetheart. I do not see the gays in my life getting too much flak for it. Some sure, but I wouldn't say constantly put down and hated. If anything they get extra lenience. I get sexually harassed once a week by a coworker named Jack, keep complaining, and nothing has been done for 3 years. He grabs me and says very gross things, workplace sexual harassment, is it not? It makes me very, very uncomfortable, but he won't get reprimanded. They tell me to my face it because he's gay. Reverence my dear, different rules than the rest of us. I tell them that I will break his nose, they say that I would be fired and he would be able to charge me if I did. No option. He's doing a great job discrediting your lifestyle up here, but I still don't hate gays, although I may hate Jack. True story (sound so sordid and wimpy on paper).

Quote:You think they would choose to get thrown out by their parents when they come out, or choose to have their religions telling them they are going to hell? Come on, Pippy? Are you fucking kidding me?

Just on a side note, you think I would choose to slowly kill myself as a drug addict? Just to tie in to the other thread. I appreciate that argument, I have heard it before. But a lack of evidence does not an evidence of a lack make... So they would not choose to be gay. That doesn't move the genetic argument forward any, just attempts to philosophize away the nurture argument...

Quote:Tell me, Pippy, when did you choose to be straight? Hmm?

Are you telling me that gayness and straightness are of an equal value? That I was as likely to be gay as straight, and my being born straight (sort of, that's where this gets complicated) is an equivalent to someone else being born gay? Interesting.

Quote:Oh, the classic, homosexuality cannot be naturally occurring because it's not evolutionary advantageous.

Please stay in the lines. I did not say it was not natural, I said that it's not selected for in evolution because it's not selected for in evolution. Natural is a blanket tern anyways. I'm arguing it may be more of a choice than strict genetics, but not that it's un-natural in any way.

Quote:First, to address the comment that homosexuality is natural. Natural has many definitions, just look at dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural But the first and most relevant definition is "existing in or formed by nature (opposed to artificial ): a natural bridge. " So essentially, if it's found in nature and not "artificial" it's natural. Since animals besides humans have been shown display homosexuality, it is safe to say homosexuality is natural. It's as simple as that.

You love the term "as simple as that", eh? I hate it. Cause it never is. I am not saying it's un-natural. The fact that monkeys have homosexual relationships discredits human homosexuality, not empowers it, it my humble mind. The animals do it, they also eat each others (and their own) babies. I agree, Gayness is natural. Any action a human can take without any foreign objects in play HAS to be natural, doesn't it? Again, blanket term, as you also pointed out above.

Quote:However, I'm sure the people are more concerned with natural as being "born with" and "evolutionary advantageous". It's fallacious to think in those terms.

Certainly I don't think 'evolutionarily advantageous', I prefer selected for, is synonymous with 'natural'. Something certainly does not have to be advantageous to be natural.

Quote:This is the basic argument for why homosexuals should have equal rights, whether it's genetic or not.

I agree, the argument has nothing to do with their rights. Everyone everywhere gets equal rights until they start getting out of line, and then we start removing their rights. Homosexual behavior, in my mind, does not count as getting out of line. Murder and shit, you know...

Quote:Now, to discuss the whole evolutionary aspect.

Yeah, yeah, kindergarten. Thanks though...

Quote:but it's doesn't prevent the race from continuing if a substantial amount of the species are still breeding

think about this sentences damning of the lifestyle from a pragmatic, or even Social Contract point of view... I would have left that one out.

Quote:If people are uncomfortable with homosexuality, that's fine.

I wish I was more open about my sexuality, you would appreciate how two faced I am being. I am so much more uncomfortable with homosexuality than you can understand. But not your guys homosexuality, understand? All I ask is that I am allowed to be born uncomfortable with gayness. I promise I won't hurt anyone, and will always try to take advantage of opportunities to learn and overcome. This one isn't going very well. They never do.

Quote:No one is asking you to pander to gays.

As Dotard so aptly responded. Specific legislation based on the sexual preference of the victim. As if there is such a thing as a crime that is not a hate crime, doublespeak bullshit that is. Pander.

Quote:It's about equality.

We agree. It's interesting that you think gays are an oppressed minority, and I think they have taken it too far. Very interesting, in it's drastic difference of opinion.

Quote:We're not bothering you we just want to live their own damn lives, the same way you get to live yours.

And as a representative for the People Who Promise Not to Hurt Anyone, But are Uncomfortable With Homosexuality Anonymous, we just want to live our lives the way we were born, as long as we promise not to hurt anyone.

I always take the opportunity to ask the honest questions I have about the genetic argument, and the accent thing, but certainly am not propagating hatred of any kind. We are all family. You're allowed to be gay. Thank you, this has been a long hour and a bit, I'm sorry to have spent all morning yelling at you Eilo, but you really know how to press my buttons. I'll be in Vermont next weekend, should I visit ol' Mass? I'll bring flowers.

Thanks all,
-Pip

Pippy, you may not care about taking away the rights of other gays, but other people do, and that's what the gay rights movement is about. There are a lot of injustices to gay people in this world today, politically and personally. Here is a study that delves into the harassment and discrimination of gay men. If you think gay people aren't treated poorly, you're living under a rock.

Your anecdote does nothing to change this fact. If what you say is true, this guy is an ass. But he doesn't represent all gay people. I don't think all gay people are perfect people, they are just that, people. And people can be jackasses. I don't know what it's like in Canada, but I damn well know what it's like in the US, were there's a lot of anti-gay rhetoric.

And for the last final fucking time, I do not support hate crime legislation at all.

Anyway, if you can accept that being gay is natural, why do you then insist it's a choice? Yes, I think heterosexuality and homosexuality are of equal value. I ask for nothing more than for them to be recognized as such. I don't want special treatment for gays, I want equal. Nothing more.

If you want to be grossed out by gay people, I can't stop you. I think it's a childish way of thinking, but to each their own. The fact remains that gay people are stereotyped, discriminated against, and denied civil rights based on being gay. I don't think the injustices done to gay people are more important than the injustices done to any other minority group or individual person. It's comparing apples and oranges when you try to compare different types of discrimination, and you shouldn't. There may be similarities, but it's still not the same.

You'd think I was asking for the sun not to come up tomorrow to ask for gays to be considered just people, and not some devious person trying to trample on the straight man. I thought this thread was about clearing up the stereotypes about gays from the horse's mouth? I'm gay, I know plenty of gay people, I'm active in the gay community. I'm doing my best to clear up the misconceptions, if you don't want to listen, I can't stop that. But as I said before, there are a lot of misconceptions based on the phenomena of social privilege. As terrible as some things you may have experienced in your own life, your plight doesn't erase the fact that gays are systematically mistreated by society.

Of course I am prepared to listen, I very much appreciate the time and emotion invested in this conversation.

I am not saying the absolute and rude things you hear me saying. I don't think all gays are anything. i certainly don't think less of any one individual because of anothers actions. I assure you that the horror story about gayness in my workplace and getting far preferential treatment is sadly true. It sounds like I stand there and whimper while he molests me, and there is a lot more threat of violence than that... But that's a side. I don't hold you somehow accountable for Jack's behavior, but it does hurt my ability to try to be less uncomfortable around homosexuality.

As the story was trying to illustrate, in Canada, or at least Ontario, gays in my workplace get excluded form what are zero tolerance policies only because of fear of legal retribution. That is not discrimination (or it is, but very positive...), that is pandering. So I hear you that gayness is shunned in Bean-Town, I beleive you've I've been there and all around there. It's worse further South. But up here, we're all progressive and shit. Same as how I love in a dominantly secular community, and you don't.

I certainly don't insist it's a choice, I am skeptical that it is wholly genetic, or that we are wholly irresponsible for it. That it may be somewhat in our control. But I don't insist anything. I am curious, I don't know the answers. You seem so tooled up to fight gay bashers that you aren't perfectly cogent. I understand that you are involved, I know how it feels to care that deeply.

"You'd think I was asking for the sun not to come up tomorrow to ask for gays to be considered just people,"
You'd think I was demanding that gays are not people to ask if gayness may not be wholly genetic. I never once said they are lesser. I reiterate that I extend whatever rights I demand for myself to everyone else until they break the rules. As is the nature of rights. Gay people, by myself, are not unfairly discriminated against based on their gayness. Not even Jack. But I will break his nose one day, and the others won't.

I just wonder two things, and thought this was a time to ask. What of the accent, or may be more aptly mannerism? And what of the genetic question, bearing in mind that is has to be the least selected for thing biologically. But not as far as that it is unnatural, or wrong. Just not selected for. A bad fate for passing on your genes. No more, no less.

You have answered my questions, that I assure you hold no hidden agenda of hatred, with 'there is no accent' and 'how dare you discriminate against us'. I appreciate the effort, the other 2 times I had this same conversation with two homosexual people I know it went about as well. No, one was far stupider (not that you're stupid, you certainly aren't), with saying it was chromosomal. Like he was a girl. I think I can take that debate.

Thank you again Eilo. The madder you get, and the more you decide you hate me, the more I like you. I hate me too, we can gab about it. Remember when I called Adrian a lamprey. Scathing!

-Pip

I dont think Pippys against homosexuals as such
He just doesnt want it rammed down his throat.


(sorry coudnt resist)

(June 11, 2010 at 1:35 pm)Pippy Wrote: As the story was trying to illustrate, in Canada, or at least Ontario, gays in my workplace get excluded form what are zero tolerance policies only because of fear of legal retribution. That is not discrimination (or it is, but very positive...), that is pandering. So I hear you that gayness is shunned in Bean-Town, I beleive you've I've been there and all around there. It's worse further South. But up here, we're all progressive and shit. Same as how I love in a dominantly secular community, and you don't.

Bull. In Ontario, gays have no more right to sexually assault people than anyone else. If your employer is paranoid about the guy crying 'gay verbal discrimination', it's time for you to cry 'sexual physical assault'. Tell them to fix the problem or you will go to the police. Grabbing you physically while saying 'gross' things (I assume you mean sexual words), is called sexual assault. You might even want to sneak a video camera or phone into work, and record the fucker picking on you. Hold it over your boss's and the asshole's head if you need to. If they don't stop the guy, call the police. File an assault report. They might even arrest him on the spot, especially if you give them a video to look at. It may be temporarily awkward, but continual assault is continually awkward and worse.

Ask your employer which cases are more frequently occurring and winnable in court, gay discrimination or sexual assault. They may realize that the latter seems to have more precedence and are more frequently prosecuted, while the former might be more of a novel case and thus perhaps less likely to be quickly and as certainly decided in the victim's favour.

Of course, I'm assuming that you have made it very clear to the guy to stop doing it. If you've been at all too polite, unclear, or wishy washy towards him, that's another story. You'll have to start from scratch in telling him strongly and seriously to stop from that point onwards.

(June 11, 2010 at 9:31 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: No, there is no such thing as Gay privilege, female privilege, etc... It's no secret that white is the favored race, male the favored gender,....and these groups gain benefits from society.

Bullshit. You gonna tell me there is no 'female privilege'? That females do not gain benefits from society that males do not? Bullshit.


I'd like to see you name one, just one 'privilege' I have gotten in my lifetime just because I am a white heterosexual male.

I have worked and worked hard for everything I have. All the while working along side of the Gay dude, or female or black man who were making more than I was for doing the same job.

It can't be, if I were the one making more, because I was working there longer or have proven myself worthy or impressed the boss. Oh nooooo... It's because I am white. But in their cases, oh it was because they worked harder, or worked there longer. I enjoyed no 'privilege' when I was the one making more. I earned it.

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@ Pippy, Please send application for admission into PWPNTHABAUWHA. I'd like to apply for membership.

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(June 11, 2010 at 12:19 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: And for the last final fucking time, I do not support hate crime legislation at all.

Eilo, YOU may not support hate crime legislation, but may of your conterparts do.

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And here is a story of racial discrimination against a white person. If you think white people arn't being treated poorly, you're living under a rock.

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(June 11, 2010 at 1:35 pm)Pippy Wrote: As the story was trying to illustrate, in Canada, or at least Ontario, gays in my workplace get excluded form what are zero tolerance policies only because of fear of legal retribution. That is not discrimination (or it is, but very positive...), that is pandering.

It's social privilege. Gay privilege that Eilo denies exist.

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(June 11, 2010 at 5:13 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote: If your employer is paranoid about the guy crying 'gay verbal discrimination', it's time for you to cry 'sexual physical assault'. Tell them to fix the problem or you will go to the police. Grabbing you physically while saying 'gross' things (I assume you mean sexual words), is called sexual assault. You might even want to sneak a video camera or phone into work, and record the fucker picking on you. Hold it over your boss's and the asshole's head if you need to. If they don't stop the guy, call the police. File an assault report. They might even arrest him on the spot, especially if you give them a video to look at. It may be temporarily awkward, but continual assault is continually awkward and worse.

And Pippy will be "let go" for some other trumped up bullshit and never work in this town again.

His safest bet is to quit quietly and seek employment elsewhere.

I will just continue bringing it up to the bosses, I am the last person interested in calling the police. He can't help it anyways, he's a gay. I'm kidding.

(June 11, 2010 at 8:48 am)Dotard Wrote:

(June 11, 2010 at 2:14 am)Saerules Wrote: I certainly don't, but I am aware of the stereotype However, it would be a fallacious thing to suggest of all "gay men" (Even if it was/is largely true).

I don't know if Pippy was suggesting "all gay men", I certainly wasn't. I never met you personally Sae, but I'd bet a dime to a dozen doughnuts you have those mannerisms and speech. I believe Pippy was asking if gayness was not a learned behavior then where did/do you 'pickup' the accent/mannerisms?

I'd have to say you'd have lost a dime-a dozen doughnuts then Of course... I'm not 'gay', so I suppose it really doesn't matter at all

I'm very erratic when I speak... and my mannerisms can hardly be lumped into any one group. In fact, you would find much more in common between me and most autistics than you would between me and the gay stereotype. So I suppose the real question is: Just what is this "accent" that the stereotype gay is supposed to have, and what are these mannerisms? If you can tell me that they exist... then you can certainly tell me what they are

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Dotard Wrote:I'd like to see you name one, just one 'privilege' I have gotten in my lifetime just because I am a white heterosexual male.

1: People do not often make those attributes ('white', 'heterosexual') objects of conversation. This happens to be a "privilege" you enjoy... you also do not enjoy the "privilege" of being feared. 'Privilege' is a term evaluated differently by us all. Some people do not want to be 'seen'... and so it would be advantageous for them if they looked mediocre... uninteresting... "normal". They would view it as a privilege to be typical (looking). It would be a disadvantage to be viewed as typical if one wished to not be viewed as typical In fact... instead of a privilege, that person might view their status as typical as a curse

Maleness is discussed way the fuck too much if you ask me... as is femaleness. We need to talk about Steve the Talking Slingshot more... why all the hate people?

Entertaining version of Saerules' explanation:

What is this "Gay voice" people talk about? Hmm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR24YaCEqqc&NR=1

Yes, he is a caricature of gay men, but a good example of the gay affectation/accent.