I'm sure being condemned to an eternity of demons pumping molten lava in your rectum is ameliorated by knowing God's love permeates hell.

Nice way of putting it

Thanks for the answers, Frodo. I appreciate the perspective. When certain Christians, though largely considered heterodoxy by the historical tradition of mainstream Christian belief, assert that everyone will be granted mercy in the end, and hence attain citizenship in heaven, I wonder if any correlation can be made with your suggestion that:

(September 13, 2014 at 4:47 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I believe people choose to stay in hell.

It sounds to me that hell is, for the unbeliever, their own version of Paradise.

Hell is the miscreant clinging onto their own goal that harms them. I believe that good is the ultimate goal that no one can deny. Eventually every last dreg will make it into the light.

(September 13, 2014 at 2:57 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: 1. What do Christians mean by God's love or God is love?

The word love in English is translated from the word agape' in the Greek. This is one of 4 words the Greeks used to defined love. Agape is unique as it describes the love God has for us and the love/respect we have for Him. It is the perfect form or expression of love.
1 cor 13 describes this love in better detail.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

Quote:2. Is God's love conceived as conditional or unconditional?

According to john 3:16 God's agape is conditional. 16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him would not be lost but have eternal life.
Belief is that condition. Because if one does not believe he will be cast into Hell. That is not a loving act for the person going into Hell.

Quote:3. If it is unconditional, how can one ever divorce themselves from it?

see above.

Quote:4. Does God continue to love those whom he has reserved hell for?

there are several in the bible in whom God is reported as hating. Again, not everyone is loved.
I would say those reserved for hell can probably count themselves in that number.

Quote:5. If God is omnipresent, in what sense is it logical to speak of the absence of his presence in hell?

The only qualifier for Omni presents is to be everywhere at once. 'Everywhere' is a synonym for creation. Hell being the absences of God is therefore the absence of creation. (Otherwise point to which day of creation it was created.) that is why the description of hell is as being the second death, the void, the pit ect..

What makes hell Hell is the absence of God. In turn what makes heaven Heaven is the presence of God. These two places have nothing to do with a bill of building materials.

Quote:6. If God is immutable, how can any love he possesses for us ever change into wrath?

This statement presupposes two things, love and anger can not coexist. (If you been married for any length of time, have kids or seen any type of betrayal from someone close to you till the end you know the two can exist together.) the second you suppose that God loves everyone. While a popular teaching, it is simply not biblically supported.
Other wise provide book chapter and verse.

Quote:7. If you have/had a child who disowned you as a parent, and you therefore reacted by revoking any extension of love you possessed for them, in what sense could your love be considered unconditional?

what in the bible makes you think Gods love is unconditional?

Quote:8. If God's love is conditioned on our actions or beliefs about him, is it fair to say that God's love is inferior to the love that many human parents do in fact possess for their children?

there are few if any 'parents' ever who can truly say their love is unconditional.

If your children just oozed anger and hostility to you and any of his siblings, who sided with you. (Not pitch a fit in wal-mart angry, Isis cut his brother's head off with a dull knife and post it on line x3 angry) with a kid like this could a self righteous parent still claim an unconditional love?

What of the children who truly love the parent? Will the self righteous parent who claims 'unconditional love' put the kids that freely and openly shows the love they have for the parent in harms way, just for the sake of the parent's bragging rights/claims to unconditionally love to all their children? Or will they cut out the cancer and protect the good kids?

When you compare apples to apples, our strongest parental love( 'storge' in the Greek) falls far short of agape.

Why? Because we are all born to the isis hate I described, but God loved us so much that for those who want redemption will have the opportunity it receive it. If we as parents had kids who hated/sinned against us as much as we sin against God we would have them so heavily medicated they would be bed ridden. (For their own safety.) Or if the partents could afford it be pawned off on a nanny, boarding school or behavior modification ranch.

God simply let's us seek redemption or not. He loves us all enough to give us a chance at life born apart from His known glory, so we can follow our hearts. So that when we are judge we can know that God's judgement is indeed just.[/quote]

Quote: It's a standard take that's been around for centuries.

One idiot babbling to another is not a "standard," Frods. It's folklore.

Frodo says that according to biblical Christianity God's love is unconditional and inseparable from his creation.
Drich says that according to biblical Christianity God's love is conditional and separable from his creation.

How will this conflict ever be solved? Part of my problem with theism is the very trouble of defining God in the way we have just witnessed.

(September 14, 2014 at 11:13 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Frodo says that according to biblical Christianity God's love is unconditional and inseparable from his creation.
Drich says that according to biblical Christianity God's love is conditional and separable from his creation.

How will this conflict ever be solved? Part of my problem with theism is the very trouble of defining God in the way we have just witnessed.

We solve this problem by turning to the bible.

Again incase you missed it the first time, in John 3:16 their is a condition mentioned in the Love God offers.

We also find in psalms 5 and proverbs 6 a list of 'evil doers.' That God hates. There is even a short list of people who the bible mentions by name.

Without a doubt their is indeed a 'Christian doctrine' that says God loves everyone without condition. "God hates the sin loves the sinner." This is an empty Christian platitude, ( not found anywhere in the bible) it directly contradicts what is actually written in the bible concerning God's feelings towards some of us.

Psalms 7:
11 God is a just judge,
And God is angry with the wicked every day.
12 If he does not turn back,
He will sharpen His sword;
He bends His bow and makes it ready.
13 He also prepares for Himself instruments of death;
He makes His arrows into fiery shafts.

(September 14, 2014 at 11:51 am)Drich Wrote: We solve this problem by turning to the bible.

Full stop. He is an idiot.

I think the problem lies with anyone reading my use of the word 'unconditional' to mean that God rewards acts against him. This is clearly not the idea. God loves you if you deserve it or not. He doesn't reward rebellion, and punishes as any loving parent has to. To not correct misbehaviour would be a dereliction of his duty. You will be forgiven if you want it. That's what I mean by it. God cannot withhold his love from those that deserve it, as it isn't in his nature. The word 'agape' probably describes what I mean more accurately.