(September 20, 2014 at 10:23 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: However obviously there are extremists who ignore these verses and impose an interpretation of Islam that is very violent.

Precisely. Atheists have no default dogmatic text to misinterpret. The religious texts are full of execution orders that can be interpreted and misinterpreted in as many ways as the number of fallible Humans who can read them.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:27 pm)ShaMan Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 10:23 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: However obviously there are extremists who ignore these verses and impose an interpretation of Islam that is very violent.

Precisely. Atheists have no default dogmatic text to misinterpret. The religious texts are full of execution orders that can be interpreted and misinterpreted as many ways as the number of fallible Humans who can read them.

I never understood how people can take the so called violent verses out of context.

For example, the one that is stated to abrogate all the peaceful verses, the same Surah it is stated to specifically not fight the disbelievers that remained true to their treaty. So obviously there is no universal command to kill all disbelievers in the world.

I don't know if it's logically possible to take into consideration all the verses and come out with a non-peaceful interpretation of Islam.

I think if one is to believe in the whole book, it has to be peace.

The Bible also says blessed are the peace makers. Again, I'm not to well versed.

But I know the Quran said to stop fighting when the other side wants peace.

(September 20, 2014 at 9:52 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 9:48 pm)Zen Badger Wrote: When theists stop claiming to know the will of their god and trying to impose it on the rest of us, I will then try to be more "humble"

I think the whole thing with will of God is just humans trying to impose morals.

Right now people trying to impose their moral view, whether they claim it's from God or not, people believe in that.

Even as an Atheist, you will condemn other moral view points, and see others as more superior to others.

I say "impose" as highly influence others to take and even legislate laws that hold those point of views. Of course, no one can force a person to have any idea.

At least I don't claim that that judgement comes from anywhere other than myself.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:33 pm)Zen Badger Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 9:52 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think the whole thing with will of God is just humans trying to impose morals.

Right now people trying to impose their moral view, whether they claim it's from God or not, people believe in that.

Even as an Atheist, you will condemn other moral view points, and see others as more superior to others.

I say "impose" as highly influence others to take and even legislate laws that hold those point of views. Of course, no one can force a person to have any idea.

At least I don't claim that that judgement comes from anywhere other than myself.

You might not, or you might say, it's better if we all have that judgement based on what you perceive should be a moral experience in humanity.

The point is, when we have morality, we are stuck with this battle of viewpoints. The only thing is Theists believe there is an ultimate being who knows the best morality, and will often claim, their view is in line with that.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:33 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The Bible also says blessed are the peace makers.

And it offers this blessing apart from any other obligation than being a peacemaker.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:33 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: But I know the Quran said to stop fighting when the other side wants peace.

It also says to fight in some places - those verses are being misused for political and prideful purposes, and have been for centuries. If the books didn't exist, and/or the religions would keep to themselves, I'd be fine with that.

I have no doctrine which condemns others who disagree with me. Religion cannot say the same.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:25 pm)tjakey Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 10:00 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I wasn't comparing Atheists to Theists. I don't know why you are.

You are suggesting that atheist take a "more humble" approach to theists. I am suggesting that, perhaps, we are already taking too humble an approach and should step up our game.

Isn't the problem in the world that people are often too arrogant to make the peaceful resolution. To compromise. To say, "what if there is merit to the other side".

I don't know. Just a thought. Maybe following the arrogance of everyone isn't the best solution to solving the arrogance of everyone.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:39 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Isn't the problem in the world that people are often too arrogant to make the peaceful resolution. To compromise. To say, "what if there is merit to the other side".

I don't know. Just a thought. Maybe following the arrogance of everyone isn't the best solution to solving the arrogance of everyone.

I think I finally see the point of the OP. He's saying this to one crowd (atheists). He's not saying that theists cannot also be un-humble (arrogant). He's just addressing one side from his own perspective.

The problem with this is, he's asking for mutual humility, while singling-out atheists in his OP. This is the fundamental flaw with the logical flow of this thread.

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(September 20, 2014 at 10:23 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know too much about the Bible, but I know Quran teaches freedom of religion.

You mean Allah doesn't plan on throwing me or the believers of any other faith in a lake of fire after all? The most general possible reading of a Quran based "freedom of religion" is akin to:

-"Don't you guys worry about it, I'll torture them myself"-

Congratu-fucking-lations Islam, for being so tolerant.

Yeah. I think in general we are all are too arrogant. As far theists go, it's a dead end. Their religion justifies their judgement more often then not. But I think if Atheist take this more humble approach, it would be better and more respectable and honorable.

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(September 20, 2014 at 10:52 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 10:23 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know too much about the Bible, but I know Quran teaches freedom of religion.

You mean Allah doesn't plan on throwing me or the believers of any other faith in a lake of fire after all?

The most general possible reading of a Quran based "freedom of religion" is akin to

"Don't you guys worry about it, I'll torture them myself"

Congratu-fucking-lations Islam, for being so tolerant.

Well if you look at the verse in my signature, it shows all good people will enter paradise. Those who do good will enter paradise. There were a lot of scholars even in the early days of Islam that said disbelievers meant in context of socio-political group, particularly those who were fighting Mohammad and the believers at that time in Arabia. It didn't refer to everyone who didn't believe or would not believe in the future.

The Shia hadiths in detail say that anyone who doesn't know the truth and doesn't oppose it, would not be judged as a "disbeliever" that is condemned in Quran.

It's one of those debatable things but I think if you take account verses like the one in my signature, as well as verses that talk about the nature of humanity being the true religion of God, I think you come to realize the Quran perhaps didn't come with this dogmatic view that we see many scholars did come up with.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:26 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 10:23 pm)Zidneya Wrote: KORAN commands to kill infidels:

So it allows you to marry Christians and Jews but commands you to kill them as well?

And what about Buddhists? and Shintoists? and Mormons? and Shamans?and Atheists? does Allah allows them to marry them as well?

Because last time I checked Islam, it is permissible, though being makruh tahrimi, for Muslim males to marry the females from among the People of the Book(Christian and Jewish women, but then again what about all the others I mentioned?) and only if they must be chaste and all of the children must be brought up Muslim.
But that's because its a misogynistic rule since women are seen as object of breed because when the female is the Muslim and the male belongs to someone else. Oh that's when it comes interesting.
Islamic scholars generally forbid Muslim women from marrying non-Muslim men. This prohibition serves to preserve the Islamic faith from dilution and expand it, within societies which are patriarchal but multi-faith. It effectively ensures that over many generations, providing that the society is patriarchal, Islam would naturally gain in adherents relative to other co-existing religions, through its ability to secure the adherence of all offspring from mixed marriages. In effect, all children of any mixed-marriages involving Muslims are guaranteed to be raised as Muslim.