(September 25, 2014 at 4:18 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Bull crap. "It's not in you" is your prideful denial. Cut the crap and stop trying to be a hero. I'm not impressed.

You think that someone would have to be a hero to take that position, that there's some sort of pride in managing to do something so simple, kindergarten morality.....don't hurt people and don't share a stolen cookie?

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Quote:It's not some future suffering that your denying. It's this moment, right now. Supposedly psychopaths are insensitive to their failings, but I don't accept that. Maybe they're desensitised. But what's that... denial, delusion.

Perhaps you're suffering in the moment. I'm not. I have a good wife, cute kids, we all eat well and the bills get paid. Even if I were suffering...I wouldn't be looking to string some fucker up to make myself happier. How is that supposed to help?

Quote:You don't know what 'it' is huh? How/ why the hell are you discussing it then?!

I can't guess at the particulars of your every fantasy Frodo. You have "failings" for which you're making a sacrifice to the tiki god. I'd be a liar if I told you that I even cared what you thought your failings were. I don't, it doesn't matter to me, none of them will warrant the solution you've offered- and that's the only failing that you have, that I need to know about, for the purposes of this discussion.

I fail to see how nailing some poor schmuck to a cross does anything for me. And I refuse to worship a god so bloodthirsty he'd string his own son up to slake that thirst.

An immoral, vile, cruel monster who torments his own creations eternally for the "sin" of the human nature that he himself created -- that is no god to be worshipped, that is a psychopath to be abjured with contempt if not active hatred.

The only thing that keeps me from hating such a monster is the sure knowledge that he is not a product of reality, but rather, of human depravity.

(September 25, 2014 at 6:59 am)whateverist Wrote: I don't think sin - wrong thoughts or actions (?) - are what drains life. Life for creatures such as ourselves is simply not limitless. We live quite a long life for a mammal of our proportions.

We are very complex creatures socially and psychologically. We have competing desires and interests. We can never have 'it all' because what we would want would include that which is incompatible. You would call that imperfection. I just call it life .. and I'm grateful for it on its own terms. I don't seek more.

No I don't call those imperfections either. I agree. That's just life.

No, I'm talking about what hinders your current actions. What prevents you functioning to your full potential. The cumulative effect is draining I guess.

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(September 25, 2014 at 7:08 am)Brakeman Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 4:18 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Yes. Like Rhythm, you seem to completely misunderstand. It's rhythms debt just as it is yours and mine. Because we're all flawed humans.

No I'm not misunderstanding you, I realize that you are trying to avoid explaining your first premise, that a debt is owed. I say no debt is owed just as in my fence work example. I didn't promise god I wouldn't do whatever the hell I wanted. I made no contract with him. I don't benefit from matching his wishes as I don't believe he exists. Furthermore, his heaven is just as bad as any hell to me. From a legal sense no debt is owed and from a moral sense no debt is owed. He didn't create me directly, my parents fucking did, so I don't owe him anything. Only in your con story does this "debt" exist and you need to sell us this bag-o-shit so that all your other woo cures make any sense.

Yeah, you're lost in the dogma, where I'm talking about our general condition as humans. Humans aren't perfect, and like it or not, you're part of the club.

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(September 25, 2014 at 9:48 am)Rhythm Wrote: that's the only failing that you have, that I need to know about, for the purposes of this discussion.

Right so you're not interested in the subject, just the by product. And you expect to get some understanding from this peep hole?

Yeah we're all hunky dory. None of us are starving and life is good. What possibly could be wrong.

All of us are limiting ourselves somehow r. That's just the way we're made. That's the error that this sacrifice fixes. I'm sick of your big man, I'm strong enough to take all this on myself act. Have some humility.

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(September 25, 2014 at 10:37 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I fail to see how nailing some poor schmuck to a cross does anything for me.

You don't lose. I don't lose. Perfect solution.

Would you want to understand or would you rather remain in ignorance?

I suppose rhythms stance is...
1. He doesn't understand why it would be necessary
2. He finds the idea of sacrifice undermines his independence

I guess #2 is dependent on #1.

(September 25, 2014 at 12:10 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Right so you're not interested in the subject, just the by product.

Both the subject and the product are unacceptable on the same grounds.

Quote:And you expect to get some understanding from this peep hole?

If it weren't such a simple concept - I might need more than a peephole to view it. It isn't, so I don't. Enlighten me Frodo.....make it okay - it's not like you haven't been given the opportunity.

Quote:Yeah we're all hunky dory. None of us are starving and life is good.

Care to string somebody up and whip him on that count as well, should I be surprised if you do? Will those who are starving suddenly find their bellies full?

Quote: What possibly could be wrong.

Plenty, but what could vicarious redemption fix, and who would be interested in fixing -anything- through vicarious redemption?

Quote:All of us are limiting ourselves somehow r. That's just the way we're made. That's the error that this sacrifice fixes. I'm sick of your big man, I'm strong enough to take all this on myself act. Have some humility.

You just keep hammering away at some argument you've concocted in your own mind. Get your shit together. I'm not a big man, I don't imagine that I can "take it", still won't stop me from trying - it's the right thing to do. I certainly understand that everyone breaks and that some loads are too heavy to carry........ but so what? If that's the way it is, so be it -which is and has been my position on the matter throughout the entirety of the thread.

Do you even need me to respond Frodo? Seems like you can have this argument with yourself.

Quote:1. He doesn't understand why it would be necessary

I don't care if it is, I'm uninterested. That something is necessary does not make it right. Would you like me to explain this to you or are you already aware?

Quote:2. He finds the idea of sacrifice undermines his independence

I find that it undermines my concepts of morality and human decency. Your's as well - but we'll get to that when you finally join the discussion, troll.

(September 25, 2014 at 12:10 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: No, I'm talking about what hinders your current actions. What prevents you functioning to your full potential. The cumulative effect is draining I guess.

But there are any number of ways to deal with issues of self-esteem or self-worth or achieving our potential. The religious or spiritual approach can be double-edged: a person may feel better from the belief that there is a cosmic father-figure who cares about him and offers him a path to redemption, or he may 'accept' that he is naught but a fallen creature, undeserving of redemption, whose only option is to cheat his fate by letting a better person take the fall.

(September 25, 2014 at 12:10 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 7:08 am)Brakeman Wrote: No I'm not misunderstanding you, I realize that you are trying to avoid explaining your first premise, that a debt is owed. I say no debt is owed just as in my fence work example. I didn't promise god I wouldn't do whatever the hell I wanted. I made no contract with him. I don't benefit from matching his wishes as I don't believe he exists. Furthermore, his heaven is just as bad as any hell to me. From a legal sense no debt is owed and from a moral sense no debt is owed. He didn't create me directly, my parents fucking did, so I don't owe him anything. Only in your con story does this "debt" exist and you need to sell us this bag-o-shit so that all your other woo cures make any sense.

Yeah, you're lost in the dogma, where I'm talking about our general condition as humans. Humans aren't perfect, and like it or not, you're part of the club.

You're dodging the question. What debt does Rhythm owe as "our general condition as humans?" How did he agree and benefit from this debt?

It doesn't matter. I owe a debt and I cannot repay it - now what? Is it time to string a motherfucker up in my stead? Does that repay my debt? Should I be okay with someone being strung up in my stead? Should I accept this "gift"?

(September 25, 2014 at 9:22 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It doesn't matter. I owe a debt and I cannot repay it - now what? Is it time to string a motherfucker up in my stead? Should I be okay with someone being strung up in my stead? Should I accept this "gift"?

Oh, but he offered to be strung up in your stead! It would be so rude to reject his offer! /sarcasm

(September 25, 2014 at 9:22 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It doesn't matter. I owe a debt and I cannot repay it - now what? Is it time to string a motherfucker up in my stead? Does that repay my debt? Should I be okay with someone being strung up in my stead? Should I accept this "gift"?

Don't worry Rhythm, I'll spank my wife tonight for you. How bad have you been so I'll know how rough I'll have to get with her?


If it's a really big debt, I'll have to sacrifice my neighbor's house on the alter of fire for you.

Get fucking rough dude......I've done some pretty live shit.