(September 25, 2014 at 12:10 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You don't lose. I don't lose. Perfect solution.

Would you want to understand or would you rather remain in ignorance?

I think we all lose, by the dimunition of personal responsibility, and even more by the dilution of moral concepts. Are you really arguing that killing an innocent to expiate the sins he hasn't committed is just?

If it is just in your view, that means your morals are relative -- because that is no action you'd condone from any living human, presumably, meaning that there are at least two sets of morals depending on who is the actor.

If it is not just, that means your god has at least one imperfection on his account.

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(September 25, 2014 at 9:22 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It doesn't matter. I owe a debt and I cannot repay it - now what? Is it time to string a motherfucker up in my stead? Does that repay my debt? Should I be okay with someone being strung up in my stead? Should I accept this "gift"?

Can I pick?! Can I?!

Gosh, this is fun.

(September 25, 2014 at 12:59 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 12:10 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: No, I'm talking about what hinders your current actions. What prevents you functioning to your full potential. The cumulative effect is draining I guess.

But there are any number of ways to deal with issues of self-esteem or self-worth or achieving our potential. The religious or spiritual approach can be double-edged: a person may feel better from the belief that there is a cosmic father-figure who cares about him and offers him a path to redemption, or he may 'accept' that he is naught but a fallen creature, undeserving of redemption, whose only option is to cheat his fate by letting a better person take the fall.

The only ways to deal with it are to face it (accept vicarious sacrifice) or ignore it and accept it (suffering) as reality.

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(September 25, 2014 at 9:12 pm)Brakeman Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 12:10 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Yeah, you're lost in the dogma, where I'm talking about our general condition as humans. Humans aren't perfect, and like it or not, you're part of the club.

You're dodging the question. What debt does Rhythm owe as "our general condition as humans?" How did he agree and benefit from this debt?

He didn't agree or benefit because he doesn't accept (understand) the solution.

He owes himself a life

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(September 25, 2014 at 9:22 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It doesn't matter. I owe a debt and I cannot repay it <snip> Should I accept this "gift"?

What sort of person would you be if someone made the ultimate sacrifice for you and you rejected it? That would make you quite the low life right? "Thanks friend, but I'm a big man and my pride would rather me fight my own battles no matter what. Someone stole my dummy as a kid."

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(September 25, 2014 at 9:52 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 12:10 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You don't lose. I don't lose. Perfect solution.

Would you want to understand or would you rather remain in ignorance?

I think we all lose, by the dimunition of personal responsibility, and even more by the dilution of moral concepts. Are you really arguing that killing an innocent to expiate the sins he hasn't committed is just?

If it is just in your view, that means your morals are relative -- because that is no action you'd condone from any living human, presumably, meaning that there are at least two sets of morals depending on who is the actor.

If it is not just, that means your god has at least one imperfection on his account.

So, God went beyond generosity and you think that equals evil? That's some spin you got going.

(September 26, 2014 at 3:54 am)fr0d0 Wrote: What sort of person would you be if someone made the ultimate sacrifice for you and you rejected it? That would make you quite the low life right? "Thanks friend, but I'm a big man and my pride would rather me fight my own battles no matter what. Someone stole my dummy as a kid."

You can't handle my objection at all can you..lol. That's why you keep inserting your own arguments and putting my name on them, huh?

(September 26, 2014 at 3:54 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 9:12 pm)Brakeman Wrote: You're dodging the question. What debt does Rhythm owe as "our general condition as humans?" How did he agree and benefit from this debt?

He didn't agree or benefit because he doesn't accept (understand) the solution.

He owes himself a life

Ok, now we're getting somewhere! There isn't any debt at all because you can't owe yourself anything, we just use that as a figure of speech to mean that we should avail ourselves of an opportunity. Since there is no debt there is no need for a vicarious blood payment to a demanding god.

If god dicks with Rhythm for not believing, it will be simply be an attack by god, not a punishment for not paying a debt.

God could just as easily be judging us by who is gullible enough to believe things without evidence, and punish those who do worse than any hell christians can imagine.

I could write it in a book if that would help back it up.

(September 26, 2014 at 3:54 am)fr0d0 Wrote: The only ways to deal with it are to face it (accept vicarious sacrifice) or ignore it and accept it (suffering) as reality.

Then I assume you are referring to some other form of potential, that can only be unlocked via divine action. I was referring to reaching our potential in the sense of taking advantage of our particular skills and abilities to achieve success, however we happen to define it.

I was teasing one of the "post n run" people with this a week or two ago, but I also think it's a relevant question: doesn't accepting that sacrifice qualify as a supremely selfish act? If we have sinned against god and deserve only eternal punishment because we are incapable of squaring that debt ourselves, is it wrong to accept the sacrifice and skip out on the responsibility for our actions? Perhaps that is the trick? When you get to the Pearly Gates, you are expected to ask to spend eternity in hell paying for your sins, at which point Saint Peter winks at you and lets you into heaven. To seek access to heaven would imply that you want god to pick up the tab for your poor behavior, and that would be an immediate ticket to hell.

Otherwise, god could've just picked up the tab from day one and skipped all of the suffering and calamity that has befallen both men and angels in the intervening years.

(September 26, 2014 at 6:05 am)Rhythm Wrote: You can't handle my objection at all can you..lol. That's why you keep inserting your own arguments and putting my name on them, huh?

Your objection is off topic

OK let's play in your playpen. Why is human suffering so abhorrent to you?

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(September 26, 2014 at 6:39 am)Brakeman Wrote: If god dicks with Rhythm for not believing, it will be simply be an attack by god, not a punishment for not paying a debt.

Rhythm dicks with himself. God says, poof, there ya go little trapped birdie, fly away.

Rhythm notices that God lost a finger freeing him, and rejecting such a barbaric and immoral act, goes back to dicking with himself.

Rhythm loses.

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(September 26, 2014 at 7:20 am)robvalue Wrote: I could write it in a book if that would help back it up.

Many have tried and failed before you rv. If by fail you mean made a fortune from the gullible.

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(September 26, 2014 at 8:24 am)Tonus Wrote:

(September 26, 2014 at 3:54 am)fr0d0 Wrote: The only ways to deal with it are to face it (accept vicarious sacrifice) or ignore it and accept it (suffering) as reality.

Then I assume you are referring to some other form of potential, that can only be unlocked via divine action. I was referring to reaching our potential in the sense of taking advantage of our particular skills and abilities to achieve success, however we happen to define it.

Yes. My best understanding is that JW's believe that you can become perfect by your own efforts. In faith we don't rate success in earthly terms of course. A full life, in the wider sense is what we mean by success.

(September 26, 2014 at 9:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Why is human suffering so abhorrent to you?

Empathy? "God lost a finger", btw, doesn't seem to be a very accurate description of the crucifixion narrative. Can our lives be bought so cheaply, and should we pay for them -even with a finger- if they can be? I think not.

That is -not- what JW's believe Frodo. They subscribe to the ransom theory. They -do- believe that they must also live a good life.

(September 26, 2014 at 8:24 am)Tonus Wrote: I was teasing one of the "post n run" people with this a week or two ago, but I also think it's a relevant question: doesn't accepting that sacrifice qualify as a supremely selfish act? If we have sinned against god and deserve only eternal punishment because we are incapable of squaring that debt ourselves, is it wrong to accept the sacrifice and skip out on the responsibility for our actions? Perhaps that is the trick? When you get to the Pearly Gates, you are expected to ask to spend eternity in hell paying for your sins, at which point Saint Peter winks at you and lets you into heaven. To seek access to heaven would imply that you want god to pick up the tab for your poor behavior, and that would be an immediate ticket to hell.

Otherwise, god could've just picked up the tab from day one and skipped all of the suffering and calamity that has befallen both men and angels in the intervening years.

It is selfish I think, yes. You're doing something for personal gain. But then that thing leads you to a place where sacrifice of the self is expected. It's not a club with a reward that any ambitious person would want. You're called to leave your comforts and serve the wider good, and by doing that, you reflect the gift given.

Responsibility is never skipped. You're convicted then, more than ever, to put right any debt you have that you can resolve. You can't be forgiven your misdeeds it you have outstanding debts. Your hypocrisy would prevent it.

You're not going to get away with lying to God. It doesn't matter what you label yourself, if you're undeserving you fail. More importantly right now in this moment.

Accepting the sacrifice means accepting your failings. That's all. An atheist can do that. What they can't do, is do anything about it. The choice is do nothing, or choose life.

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(September 26, 2014 at 9:46 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(September 26, 2014 at 9:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Why is human suffering so abhorrent to you?

Empathy? "God lost a finger", btw, doesn't seem to be a very accurate description of the crucifixion narrative. Can our lives be bought so cheaply, and should we pay for them -even with a finger- if they can be? I think not.

That is -not- what JW's believe Frodo. They subscribe to the ransom theory. They -do- believe that they must also live a good life.

Empathy is the reason it works for us. Anything less would be an empty gesture to the human ego.

Christians believe that they should lead a good life. Show evidence of the spirit etc. JWs have duty laid down for them, rather than it being inspirational.

Empathy is the reason that vicarious redemption works for you......? I want you to put that statement under a microscope, give it the sort of thought you've clearly never given it before - because something is amiss.

JWs -are- christians Frodo.
http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/...hristians/