(June 23, 2010 at 9:24 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: what you guys are expecting me to respond to? he said nothing more than what he think

Mo3, I realize you are active on other threads but I'm just curious if you have any argument against my observation that Islam takes religious special pleading to a whole new level?

At this point, I'm not even going to ask for any proof that Muhammad spoke to God. We both already know there isn't any. Religion would never rely on "faith" if there was any legitimate proof they could use.

What I want to know is how you reconcile the idea that Muhammad knew Jesus better than the people who told him about Jesus, who's very church was established by the people who allegedly knew him? He also knew the Jewish prophets better than the Jews did. Many Muslims try to quote the Bible to me to try to prove the legitimacy of their religion, essentially confirming that their religion is based on the faiths of those who they say got it all wrong.

This is not just special pleading. We're past that. If I were to adopt a faith, I'd stay as close to the source as possible. Jews should be expected to know Jewish prophets best. Christians should be expected to know Jesus best. An active and personal god, involved in human events, would ensure that scriptures wouldn't be corrupted.

Quote:I'm just curious if you have any argument against my observation that Islam takes religious special pleading to a whole new level?

I'm willing to put a few bucks down on "no."

Quote:Mo3, I realize you are active on other threads but I'm just curious if you have any argument against my observation that Islam takes religious special pleading to a whole new level?

what do you mean?

Quote:At this point, I'm not even going to ask for any proof that Muhammad spoke to God. We both already know there isn't any. Religion would never rely on "faith" if there was any legitimate proof they could use.

you cant start from this place(trying to prove did he talk to god or not) you have a book that claims to be the word of god you must examine it to see wether it is the word of god or not
who said that i am or any muslim rely on faith?(do you mean by relying on faith that we just believe without reasons?)

Quote:What I want to know is how you reconcile the idea that Muhammad knew Jesus better than the people who told him about Jesus, who's very church was established by the people who allegedly knew him? He also knew the Jewish prophets better than the Jews did.

the Quran is the word of god not muhammed(pbuh) anything written in the Quran doesnt mean that he knew the prophets better than them

Quote:Many Muslims try to quote the Bible to me to try to prove the legitimacy of their religion, essentially confirming that their religion is based on the faiths of those who they say got it all wrong.

we believe that the bible still contains some of god word.but plz give me an example of how they use the bible to prove the legitimacey of islam?

Quote:This is not just special pleading. We're past that. If I were to adopt a faith, I'd stay as close to the source as possible. Jews should be expected to know Jewish prophets best. hristians should be expected to know Jesus best. An active and personal god, involved in human events, would ensure that scriptures wouldn't be corrupted.

the people that lived during moses and people who lived during jesus you mean. but after that it was a long time and a lot of things happened according to islam they just started adding and removing things from the scriptures for their own benefit untill most of their scriptures was lost(the word of god is all preserved in the Quran)

(June 29, 2010 at 12:48 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: what do you mean?

Let me explain what special pleading is.

"Special pleading" is a logical fallacy where a person asks for special treatment or a lower set of standards for a cherished belief that he or she would not accept for any other belief. It's probably the most common fallacy I see in apologetics, likely because it's built into the whole concept of "faith".

This is why I say that all religions indulge in special pleading. The entire concept of faith is accepting something in your own religion that you wouldn't just accept from any other religion with the same amount of proof. Christians reject the Quran, for example, but quote the Bible to atheists as if just doing so proves anything.

Common examples of special pleading that I see all the time when religious people argue:
1. My god is real. Yours is just an idol.
2. My scripture is history. Yours is just mythology.
3. My prophets told the truth. Yours lied.

Islam seems to take this common special pleading to a whole new level, for reasons I've previously articulated.

Quote:you cant start from this place(trying to prove did he talk to god or not) you have a book that claims to be the word of god you must examine it to see wether it is the word of god or not
who said that i am or any muslim rely on faith?(do you mean by relying on faith that we just believe without reasons?)

If any religion didn't rely on faith, it would cease to be a religion and fall under the domain of science. We could examine souls in the lab and figure out how miracles work. Neither the Bible nor the Koran would consider faith a virtue but rather encourage everyone to seek the truth for themselves, confident that the truth would bring them to God.

Quote:the Quran is the word of god not muhammed(pbuh) anything written in the Quran doesnt mean that he knew the prophets better than them

So if Allah spoke to Muhammad and cleared it up for him, why not do the same for the Christians. That would have saved 1000+ years of bloodshed and cleared it all up nicely for them, too. Maybe if Jesus would return and tell the Christians in Rome and Constantinople, rather than Allah, it could have worked out a little better. But you ask me to believe that Allah's best plan was to instead speak to some guy several hundred years later in a different land and that was going to solve the problem?

Quote:we believe that the bible still contains some of god word.but plz give me an example of how they use the bible to prove the legitimacey of islam?

They quote the Gospels because these are the only detailed accounts we have of Jesus. They claim that Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God (he did) and that he admonished his followers not to worship him but to instead follow only God (he didn't).

Quote:the people that lived during moses and people who lived during jesus you mean. but after that it was a long time and a lot of things happened according to islam they just started adding and removing things from the scriptures for their own benefit untill most of their scriptures was lost(the word of god is all preserved in the Quran)

Both Islam and Protestant Christianity rely heavily on the misconception that there was a "pure" set of teachings by Jesus that were later corrupted. Both groups claim to be returning to that.

In reality, there was a plethora of different Christianities in the first few centuries, all with conflicting ideas about what Jesus was. None of them bore any resemblance to Islam.

If Jesus did live, he failed to write anything down and apparently didn't make much clear to his followers, who evidently couldn't even agree on whether he was a mortal possessed by God (Ebionites), a higher god (Marcionites) or never existed except as a spiritual apparition (Docetics). By the Muslim story, Jesus hadn't finished flying off into the sky before Paul convinced a large number of his followers that he was a intercessor to God who should be prayed to.

If that's your idea of a "great" prophet, I'd hate to see what you think is a failure.

Quote:you must examine it to see wether it is the word of god or not

And you, of course, can tell the difference because................................

(Oh, wait. You read the book and it says so. )

Quote:Common examples of special pleading that I see all the time when religious people argue:
1. My god is real. Yours is just an idol.
2. My scripture is history. Yours is just mythology.
3. My prophets told the truth. Yours lied.

are you saying that muslims do this also?

Quote:So if Allah spoke to Muhammad and cleared it up for him, why not do the same for the Christians. That would have saved 1000+ years of bloodshed and cleared it all up nicely for them, too.

muhammed(pbuh) is the messenger of god to everyone and the Quran contains what god is saying to the christians but everyone have to make his own choice

Quote:Maybe if Jesus would return and tell the Christians in Rome and Constantinople, rather than Allah, it could have worked out a little better. But you ask me to believe that Allah's best plan was to instead speak to some guy several hundred years later in a different land and that was going to solve the problem?

life is a test and it doesnt work like that do you think that if jesus(pbuh) returned and told the people that they are doing a wrong thing they would believe him he did this with the jews and most of them didnt believe him

Quote:They quote the Gospels because these are the only detailed accounts we have of Jesus. They claim that Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God (he did) and that he admonished his followers not to worship him but to instead follow only God (he didn't).

this needs a whole thread as it will take a lot of discussing but i want to correct you we say that son of god means someone close to god(lot of people called son of god in the bible) and that jesus(pbuh) himself never said worship me or i am god(his followers did but he didnt)

Quote:In reality, there was a plethora of different Christianities in the first few centuries, all with conflicting ideas about what Jesus was. None of them bore any resemblance to Islam.

there was a lot of people who was saying that there is no god except Allah and jesus(pbuh) was his messenger these people is considered muslims(islam is not a group name its a state of submissionn to god will)

Quote:By the Muslim story, Jesus hadn't finished flying off into the sky before Paul convinced a large number of his followers that he was a intercessor to God who should be prayed to.

i dont know when paul started misleading people but all i know that he started convincing a lot of kings who therefor started killing the true believers everywhere but a lot of them escaped to different places

Quote:If that's your idea of a "great" prophet, I'd hate to see what you think is a failure.

your measurment of a great prophet depends on how many people believed in him which is really not his responsibility some prophets was sent and no one believed in them but they must deliver the message of god

Quote:are you saying that muslims do this also?

It's the only thing that muslims ever do!

(June 30, 2010 at 4:41 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: are you saying that muslims do this also?

You don't?

Does this mean you think that all scriptures are accurate and all gods exist? Are you a henotheist?

Quote:muhammed(pbuh) is the messenger of god to everyone and the Quran contains what god is saying to the christians but everyone have to make his own choice

So what did Allah think was going to happen?

The Christians start worshiping Jesus. Does he set them straight? No. He lets the religion form and take root. Several hundred years roll by and one day he finally decides to do something about it. Does he speak to a church heirarch or Roman emperor? No. Does he speak to anyone in the area who might have a shred of credibility? No. He goes to another land that has no contact with Rome or Constantinople, speaks to one guy, provides no evidence to convince the Christians and this is Allah's plan?

"Oh pardon me. We thought that being part of the church established by Jesus' apostles and disciples would give us the proper understanding of what Jesus preached. We thought the eye-witness accounts written in the gospels would convey his message. But some guy has come along from a foreign land several hundred years later and announced that Jesus was in fact his forerunner and really we should be following him instead. Of course! It all makes perfect sense! We'll just convert right away..."

Quote:life is a test and it doesnt work like that do you think that if jesus(pbuh) returned and told the people that they are doing a wrong thing they would believe him he did this with the jews and most of them didnt believe him

Yeah, that also seemed pretty unbelievable to me too. Jesus is healing the sick, the lame and even the dead. And both the Christians and Muslims say the Jews beheld these miracles and said, "Meh, yeah you and every other street preacher. Hit the bricks, buddy."?

Go to an atheist convention with some of the most die-hard skeptics. Heal Stephen Hawking in front of everyone. Allow him to walk and speak again. Then watch as every atheist converts. The reason we don't believe is because there's no proof.

Quote:this needs a whole thread as it will take a lot of discussing but i want to correct you we say that son of god means someone close to god(lot of people called son of god in the bible) and that jesus(pbuh) himself never said worship me or i am god(his followers did but he didnt)

John 4:16

Quote:there was a lot of people who was saying that there is no god except Allah and jesus(pbuh) was his messenger these people is considered muslims(islam is not a group name its a state of submissionn to god will)

All of the versions of Christianity involved Jesus as an intercessor with Yahweh, something wholly blasphemous both to Judaism and Islam.

Quote:i dont know when paul started misleading people but all i know that he started convincing a lot of kings who therefor started killing the true believers everywhere but a lot of them escaped to different places

Paul supposedly started preaching within a few years of Jesus' crucifixion.

And these kings didn't have that authority. They were subject to Rome, which had a standing policy of tolerating religions provided they didn't involve rebellion against Roman authority.

Quote:your measurment of a great prophet depends on how many people believed in him which is really not his responsibility some prophets was sent and no one believed in them but they must deliver the message of god

So all you have to do is show up? How do you measure "greatness" then?

And there are things Jesus failed to do, like write anything down or make things clear to his followers. He also failed to be noticed by anyone outside his little circle (assuming he existed at all). This despite having every advantage of magical powers on loan from God. Negligence.

Total
Epic
Failure

Quote:Common examples of special pleading that I see all the time when religious people argue:
1. My god is real. Yours is just an idol.
2. My scripture is history. Yours is just mythology.
3. My prophets told the truth. Yours lied.

this is what we say:
1-they are not worshipping idol they add things from their head to Allah which is not true
2-your scripture contains some of god word+historians word+authors word+translators word
3-all prophet came with the same message(we believe in all the prophets) which is to worship Allah and nothing but him

Quote:The Christians start worshiping Jesus. Does he set them straight? No. He lets the religion form and take root. Several hundred years roll by and one day he finally decides to do something about it. Does he speak to a church heirarch or Roman emperor? No. Does he speak to anyone in the area who might have a shred of credibility? No. He goes to another land that has no contact with Rome or Constantinople, speaks to one guy, provides no evidence to convince the Christians and this is Allah's plan?

if any of this happened there will be no test for us which is one of the reasons of our temporary existance in the world.asking why god did this or that really need a great knowledge about everything as if you dont know why we are here or what we are suppose to do you will never understand the reason beyond things
and about the evidence if you searched in different religions with objectivity and you didnt find any evidence i wish to know what kind of evidence you was looking for

Quote:Yeah, that also seemed pretty unbelievable to me too. Jesus is healing the sick, the lame and even the dead. And both the Christians and Muslims say the Jews beheld these miracles and said, "Meh, yeah you and every other street preacher. Hit the bricks, buddy."?

Go to an atheist convention with some of the most die-hard skeptics. Heal Stephen Hawking in front of everyone. Allow him to walk and speak again. Then watch as every atheist converts. The reason we don't believe is because there's no proof.

if someone dont want to believe he will find an exit for any proof given to him what jews tried to do is to justify that they didnt believe by claiming that he was suppose to be a king according to their scripture and later they said he is a sorcerer and the last justification they did was before trying to kill him they said that if he was sent from god we will not be able to kill him(they are still waiting for him to come as a king)

Quote:John 4:16

read context to understand what did he mean and specially john 4:12

Quote:How do you measure "greatness" then?

delivering the messege of god and have patience for all the things happened to them

Quote:And there are things Jesus failed to do, like write anything down or make things clear to his followers. He also failed to be noticed by anyone outside his little circle (assuming he existed at all). This despite having every advantage of magical powers on loan from God. Negligence.

a lot of things was written but during the killing of people opposing each other a lot was lost and later they had to choose between different books but there are a lot of another books discovered that contains writings by others who was with jesus(pbuh) but of course few was introduced publicly and on the internet(i have a translation of bernaba bible and it contains a lot of differences from the bible we have now)

Quote:2-your scripture contains some of god word+historians word+authors word+translators word

Just like yours....except for the 'god word' crap which simply does not exist.