(October 25, 2014 at 9:03 pm)Brian37 Wrote: ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

If you agree the system is not fair then there is no fucking point arguing the merits of this case in the first place.

Your initial portrayal of the case was unfair....so there is really no fucking point about arguing it in the context you want either.

(October 25, 2014 at 6:51 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Oh really, sounds just like a gun nutter "Other bad shit happens so lets not even try to do better at all"

You claimed the woman was a rape victim, which she wasn't.

I do not know the merits of her case.

I agree with you that Islamic countries have harsher sentencing for women.

However, in western countries there is harsher sentencing for men.

(October 25, 2014 at 9:16 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(October 25, 2014 at 9:03 pm)Brian37 Wrote: ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

If you agree the system is not fair then there is no fucking point arguing the merits of this case in the first place.

Your initial portrayal of the case was unfair....so there is really no fucking point about arguing it in the context you want either.

No it is not. HOLY FUCK still missing the point.

We are not talking about even a country with westernized laws. They have bronze aged theocracy laws, and not even laws that value the rights of woman.

That would be like playing armchair quarterback at a witch hunt in Salem Mass "Well lets give the court a chance, maybe they do have evidence she is a witch".

Still not getting, it does not matter what she is accused of, the deck is stacked even BEFORE she got accused.

Seriously I do not know how old you are or what country you live in. But I am old enough to remember bigotry when I was a kid, and even blacks today can tell you that there is such at thing as "guilty while black".

You stupidly make this about one woman and one case and I am telling you that is not the way you look at it to understand HOW to long term fix things. If you were one of the Colonists back when they were burning witches, if we went by your logic we would still be burning witches.

(October 25, 2014 at 3:08 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: If someone is about to be raped, should they wait till after they have been raped to take action?

Depends. How much do they want to survive this, what do they estimate their continued value of living from the rapist's view to be, are they currently equipped such that they can get out of this situation without being raped (if not, then can they become equipped if they play their cards 'right' during the rape), is the rapist particularly larger and stronger such that if one gives even a moment of their freedom they will lose it forever, does one wish to be able to put this person in prison for a very long period of time, is one a valuable distraction such that someone else might make a play while this rapist is preoccupied, etc?

I get that it was rhetorical... but it's a good question, and the answer is: sometimes. Keep your head, disconnect from the experience when you are able... and relax, as it saves on some of the bruising and the fractured/broken bones.

Quote:And execution is a really bad thing, no matter the crime, execution should be avoided as it is a point of no return...

Hopefully you'll never be in the position where making this call is necessary, or the best of the options (regardless of guilt) for one's agenda.

Serial murdering of dozens of people is also a point of no return.

---

(October 25, 2014 at 2:47 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Here we go again. Um depends on who you are talking about. Christian bigots, who also hate the existence of atheists? Or liberals and liberal atheists who refuse to default to PC as a tactic because we want the East to have it's own Age of Reason and it's own Jefferson and Paine

That's the beauty of not specifying: my statements apply equally to the lot.

Age of Reason? What's this?

Quote:Islam is still far to widely in that region stuck in it's own dark age thinking. Malala was shot for wanting an education. Ayaan Hirsi Ali grew up in Islam would agree that political correctness is not the way to help the oppressed.

We more or less put it there, and our actions reinforce hatred and fear of the West... a rabid and cornered beast, if you will. Where are you getting this "political correctness" nonsense from, anyhow?

Quote:Now please do not argue something stupid about us being meanies because we don't give religion a pedestal. No sane person reading this is suggesting, or should suggest government force of the end to any religion.

I have never argued this. It is a statement of fact that Islam gets a bad rap in the West. That does not make a Muslim observing this fact an irony... and he is right: we sent a good number of crusades into their face, toppled the ottoman empire, incited dozens of wars in Islamic countries, toppled iran, toppled iraq, created 'Israel', and generally have been tremendous dickheads to islam for... many centuries.

I would suggest leaving them to the fate we've given them.

Quote:Some well intended atheists and theist on the left still have yet to learn the difference between the human right to claim what you want, and the separate ability to demonstrate the credibility of a claim.

Thing about claims... sure, I see your flag... but it's laughably undefended? Thank you for building me an outpost on my land; you saved me a lot of effort.

Quote:I do not find claims that women are property credible. I do not find claims of calls to violence as a form of activism credible. Those people who claim those things have a source they justify those claims with. It was no different when Christians burned witches and justified slavery and bigotry. And only an idiot would claim it is not the case even today that far too many Christians still today justify denying gays rights because of what they read in the bible.

Humans are as ownable as any other existence. What you find 'ownable' is irrelevant if you've not the power to contest the claims others have made; power which you do not posses.

Quote:NO that is not a call to end religion, it is a call to stop pretending religion is not used as a weapon when it is painfully obvious it is.

Everything can be molded for, or against, a goal. People are weapons, love is a weapon, information is a weapon, food is a weapon, art is a weapon... weapons are not defined as such except by their intent.

It just so happens that religion can be a very effective weapon.

Quote:Instead of getting upset with people wanting to stop religious bullying and religious bigotry, stop them from using religion or their holy books as excuses to justify what they do.

Why should I stop them? I'm not upset with anybody in this instance: a woman killed a man, and she is put to death. What is so shocking about this in a nation with a death penalty?

Humans are justifying creatures... we believe in our reasons. Whether our reasons be our religion or not changes nothing.

Quote:Get angry at the right people, don't get angry at the people getting angry at the right people.

I'll just save time and get angry at white people

(October 26, 2014 at 7:58 am)Alice Wrote:

(October 25, 2014 at 3:08 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: If someone is about to be raped, should they wait till after they have been raped to take action?

Depends. How much do they want to survive this, what do they estimate their continued value of living from the rapist's view to be, are they currently equipped such that they can get out of this situation without being raped (if not, then can they become equipped if they play their cards 'right' during the rape), is the rapist particularly larger and stronger such that if one gives even a moment of their freedom they will lose it forever, does one wish to be able to put this person in prison for a very long period of time, is one a valuable distraction such that someone else might make a play while this rapist is preoccupied, etc?

I get that it was rhetorical... but it's a good question, and the answer is: sometimes. Keep your head, disconnect from the experience when you are able... and relax, as it saves on some of the bruising and the fractured/broken bones.

Quote:And execution is a really bad thing, no matter the crime, execution should be avoided as it is a point of no return...

Hopefully you'll never be in the position where making this call is necessary, or the best of the options (regardless of guilt) for one's agenda.

Serial murdering of dozens of people is also a point of no return.

---

(October 25, 2014 at 2:47 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Here we go again. Um depends on who you are talking about. Christian bigots, who also hate the existence of atheists? Or liberals and liberal atheists who refuse to default to PC as a tactic because we want the East to have it's own Age of Reason and it's own Jefferson and Paine

That's the beauty of not specifying: my statements apply equally to the lot.

Age of Reason? What's this?

Quote:Islam is still far to widely in that region stuck in it's own dark age thinking. Malala was shot for wanting an education. Ayaan Hirsi Ali grew up in Islam would agree that political correctness is not the way to help the oppressed.

We more or less put it there, and our actions reinforce hatred and fear of the West... a rabid and cornered beast, if you will. Where are you getting this "political correctness" nonsense from, anyhow?

Quote:Now please do not argue something stupid about us being meanies because we don't give religion a pedestal. No sane person reading this is suggesting, or should suggest government force of the end to any religion.

I have never argued this. It is a statement of fact that Islam gets a bad rap in the West. That does not make a Muslim observing this fact an irony... and he is right: we sent a good number of crusades into their face, toppled the ottoman empire, incited dozens of wars in Islamic countries, toppled iran, toppled iraq, created 'Israel', and generally have been tremendous dickheads to islam for... many centuries.

I would suggest leaving them to the fate we've given them.

Quote:Some well intended atheists and theist on the left still have yet to learn the difference between the human right to claim what you want, and the separate ability to demonstrate the credibility of a claim.

Thing about claims... sure, I see your flag... but it's laughably undefended? Thank you for building me an outpost on my land; you saved me a lot of effort.

Quote:I do not find claims that women are property credible. I do not find claims of calls to violence as a form of activism credible. Those people who claim those things have a source they justify those claims with. It was no different when Christians burned witches and justified slavery and bigotry. And only an idiot would claim it is not the case even today that far too many Christians still today justify denying gays rights because of what they read in the bible.

Humans are as ownable as any other existence. What you find 'ownable' is irrelevant if you've not the power to contest the claims others have made; power which you do not posses.

Quote:NO that is not a call to end religion, it is a call to stop pretending religion is not used as a weapon when it is painfully obvious it is.

Everything can be molded for, or against, a goal. People are weapons, love is a weapon, information is a weapon, food is a weapon, art is a weapon... weapons are not defined as such except by their intent.

It just so happens that religion can be a very effective weapon.

Quote:Instead of getting upset with people wanting to stop religious bullying and religious bigotry, stop them from using religion or their holy books as excuses to justify what they do.

Why should I stop them? I'm not upset with anybody in this instance: a woman killed a man, and she is put to death. What is so shocking about this in a nation with a death penalty?

Humans are justifying creatures... we believe in our reasons. Whether our reasons be our religion or not changes nothing.

Quote:Get angry at the right people, don't get angry at the people getting angry at the right people.

I'll just save time and get angry at white people

Not at all not, don't be silly. I am ticked at ignorance and bad use of logic. You do not fix a problem without accepting that it is a problem.

I am using segregation in our history to serve as an example institutionalized laws that stack the deck against a particular segment of society. In the case of Iran, that law is on the books. That law is sexist, there is no way any women can have confidence in a system that punishes you for something that happened to you.

Just like no black person during segregation could have confidence in laws or courts that were stacked against them even before they got accused of something.

It is not a black or white issue. If you came out as an Atheist if you lived in Saudi Arabia, how much confidence would you have in their court system? How easy would it be for a fundy living there, to accuse another Muslim of being an atheist, even if they were not?

Please tell me you are not that dense to understand that?

The laws in Iran are not only stacked against women, they are stacked against non Shiites, including Sunni Muslims. At best you get by in that country if you keep your mouth shut.

---

Iran has traffic lights too, that doesn't make them western and secular.

(October 25, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(October 25, 2014 at 3:28 pm)Losty Wrote: Is "rape victim sentenced to death" your title or theirs?

I never said the case was fake. I said, we don't know if she's guilty or not because they just found her guilty without allowing her to have proper defense. Take a fucking chill pill.

Holy fucking crap. You are stuck in the moment just like white bigots and even whites who are not bigots who cannot understand the outrage over Micheal Brown.

CONDITIONS AND CLIMATE are a problem there and there is no way under those conditions in that climate to claim she got a fair trial.

The law is on the books that the state can execute you for your own rape. That is not a neutral law, that is a sexist law based on the Koran. As such there is no way one can see the state or the court as objective or fair to women. Anymore than white Christians under segregation could be viewed as fair when those laws existed.

There is no law in Iran that rape victims receive the death penalty.

(October 26, 2014 at 7:52 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(October 25, 2014 at 9:16 pm)Heywood Wrote: Your initial portrayal of the case was unfair....so there is really no fucking point about arguing it in the context you want either.

No it is not. HOLY FUCK still missing the point.

We are not talking about even a country with westernized laws. They have bronze aged theocracy laws, and not even laws that value the rights of woman.

That would be like playing armchair quarterback at a witch hunt in Salem Mass "Well lets give the court a chance, maybe they do have evidence she is a witch".

Still not getting, it does not matter what she is accused of, the deck is stacked even BEFORE she got accused.

Seriously I do not know how old you are or what country you live in. But I am old enough to remember bigotry when I was a kid, and even blacks today can tell you that there is such at thing as "guilty while black".

You stupidly make this about one woman and one case and I am telling you that is not the way you look at it to understand HOW to long term fix things. If you were one of the Colonists back when they were burning witches, if we went by your logic we would still be burning witches.

Brian, you made it appear that she was to be executed for being a rape victim....which was an outright lie.

(October 26, 2014 at 9:36 am)Lao Shizi Wrote:

(October 25, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Holy fucking crap. You are stuck in the moment just like white bigots and even whites who are not bigots who cannot understand the outrage over Micheal Brown.

CONDITIONS AND CLIMATE are a problem there and there is no way under those conditions in that climate to claim she got a fair trial.

The law is on the books that the state can execute you for your own rape. That is not a neutral law, that is a sexist law based on the Koran. As such there is no way one can see the state or the court as objective or fair to women. Anymore than white Christians under segregation could be viewed as fair when those laws existed.

There is no law in Iran that rape victims receive the death penalty.

So Amnesty International was pulling shit our of their ass?

Fine, go argue with them then.

---

(October 26, 2014 at 9:38 am)Heywood Wrote:

(October 26, 2014 at 7:52 am)Brian37 Wrote: No it is not. HOLY FUCK still missing the point.

We are not talking about even a country with westernized laws. They have bronze aged theocracy laws, and not even laws that value the rights of woman.

That would be like playing armchair quarterback at a witch hunt in Salem Mass "Well lets give the court a chance, maybe they do have evidence she is a witch".

Still not getting, it does not matter what she is accused of, the deck is stacked even BEFORE she got accused.

Seriously I do not know how old you are or what country you live in. But I am old enough to remember bigotry when I was a kid, and even blacks today can tell you that there is such at thing as "guilty while black".

You stupidly make this about one woman and one case and I am telling you that is not the way you look at it to understand HOW to long term fix things. If you were one of the Colonists back when they were burning witches, if we went by your logic we would still be burning witches.

Brian, you made it appear that she was to be executed for being a rape victim....which was an outright lie.

Holy fucking crap. Now it is one thing to claim I am mistaken or misunderstanding, but do not fucking accuse me of lying.

---

Now the mentality is there like it was in America that women have no rights when it comes to what men do to them. No different than the slut shaming that goes on in the west even today. But even worse in far too much of the east. She is not allowed to defend herself like a man can against another man.

My older sister was raped. Because of the climate back then she was taught to blame herself for what someone did to her and if only she had not gone out by herself, and not trusted a friend of a friend, she wouldn't have been raped. She didn't report it because she was taught it was her fault.

Now regardless of what you think I am getting wrong here that sexist mentality is even worse in Iran. Amnesty International would not report something if they did not think an injustice was happening.

Do you want a world where women can defend themselves? Do you want a world where women don't have to fear men? Do you want a world where women don't have to fear reporting rape?

Then stop stupidly focusing on what you think I got wrong and stand up for women.

Their sexism is why she was put to death. The same sexism that taught my sister that her own rape was her fault.

(October 26, 2014 at 9:49 am)Brian37 Wrote: Holy fucking crap. Now it is one thing to claim I am mistaken or misunderstanding, but do not fucking accuse me of lying.

If you weren't lying you were engaging in demagoguery.

(October 26, 2014 at 10:19 am)Heywood Wrote:

(October 26, 2014 at 9:49 am)Brian37 Wrote: Holy fucking crap. Now it is one thing to claim I am mistaken or misunderstanding, but do not fucking accuse me of lying.

If you weren't lying you were engaging in demagoguery.

Tell you what, move to Iran and see if you can hand out bibles door to door then come back and tell me I am engaging in demagoguery.

You are the fucking idiot who points out "their" instead of "there" when the law itself written for a theocracy.

Now when you can prove to me Iran is secular and not a theocracy then I will shut up. You are staring at my finger when I am pointing at the moon moron.