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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 3:49 pm
(November 30, 2014 at 3:32 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: (November 30, 2014 at 3:12 pm)Heywood Wrote: Because this hypothesis has reasons to be believed.....namely the observation that sub-realities need intellects to come into existence/ our reality appears to be a sub reality of a larger reality....it is a much more reasonable proposition than there is no God.
Is it? It appears wholly fallacious from here.
I am not making a composition fallacy. I am not saying our reality can't be the product of some unintelligent natural processes. I am saying that since we only observe sub realities coming into existence via the hand of intellect, that suggests that all sub realities come into existence via the hand of intellect.
Observing only white swans does not prove all swans are white. However the more observations you make of swans which are white, while never observing a black one....the more confidence you should have in the conjecture that all swans are white.
Show me a sub reality which comes into existence via some unintelligent natural process and my argument is demolished.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 3:50 pm
Quote:Show me a sub reality which comes into existence via some unintelligent natural process and my argument is demolished.
Define sub-reality first.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 3:51 pm
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2014 at 3:51 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 30, 2014 at 3:49 pm)Heywood Wrote: I am saying that since we only observe sub realities coming into existence via the hand of intellect, that suggests that all sub realities come into existence via the hand of intellect. and ignoring the whole "subreality" bit - you'd still be wrong. Minecraft is a procedural generation, understand?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 3:52 pm
(November 30, 2014 at 3:41 pm)Jenny A Wrote: (November 30, 2014 at 1:33 pm)Heywood Wrote: The universe is fined tuned....but not for life. The universe is fine tuned for emergent complexity....life is just one example of emergent complexity.
Really? How so? There is a hell of a lot of universe, more than my mind or yours can really comprehend, and life is the most complex thing we've found in it. And we haven't found much of any evidence of life elsewhere, just indications that it might be possible on some other planets. If it was designed for emergent complexity, it wasn't designed well. Mostly what there is is empty space.
You are conflating emergent complexity with life. Life is just one example of emergent complexity. The triple alpha process is another.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 3:55 pm
(November 30, 2014 at 3:52 pm)Heywood Wrote: (November 30, 2014 at 3:41 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Really? How so? There is a hell of a lot of universe, more than my mind or yours can really comprehend, and life is the most complex thing we've found in it. And we haven't found much of any evidence of life elsewhere, just indications that it might be possible on some other planets. If it was designed for emergent complexity, it wasn't designed well. Mostly what there is is empty space.
You are conflating emergent complexity with life. Life is just one example of emergent complexity. The triple alpha process is another.
No, just suggesting that the complexity you want to get to is life and that life is much more complex than star formation.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 3:55 pm
(November 30, 2014 at 3:50 pm)Smaug Wrote: Quote:Show me a sub reality which comes into existence via some unintelligent natural process and my argument is demolished.
Define sub-reality first.
How about....a procedural generation.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 3:55 pm
(November 30, 2014 at 3:52 pm)Heywood Wrote: Life is just one example of emergent complexity. -in a procedural generation.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 3:59 pm
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2014 at 4:01 pm by Heywood.)
(November 30, 2014 at 3:55 pm)Jenny A Wrote: (November 30, 2014 at 3:52 pm)Heywood Wrote: You are conflating emergent complexity with life. Life is just one example of emergent complexity. The triple alpha process is another.
No, just suggesting that the complexity you want to get to is life and that life is much more complex than star formation.
I am not suggesting that the goal of all this emergent complexity is life. I am suggesting that our reality is an emergent complex system. Sustained emergent complexity is the goal of this fined tuned system we call the universe....not life.
(November 30, 2014 at 3:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (November 30, 2014 at 3:52 pm)Heywood Wrote: Life is just one example of emergent complexity. -in a procedural generation.
Intellect...it appears....is another example of emergent complexity. I'm surprised none of you jumped on that yet.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 4:03 pm
(November 30, 2014 at 1:33 pm)Heywood Wrote: The universe is fined tuned....but not for life. The universe is fine tuned for emergent complexity....life is just one example of emergent complexity.
Natural selection adjusts an organism to survive in the environment in which it finds itself. It does not adjust the environment to suit the organism. If the organism cannot adapt to changes, it dies.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 4:08 pm
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2014 at 4:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 30, 2014 at 3:59 pm)Heywood Wrote: Intellect...it appears....is another example of emergent complexity. I'm surprised none of you jumped on that yet. Which would be trouble....because now we're talking about the product creating the means of it's own production...huh? Since intellect is required and all that jazz, and we're limiting ourselves to observation, appeals to evidence.
Personally, I don't jump on intellect as an emergent property because I haven't seen any strong explanation of when or why it emerges, or why one system has it - and we say that it does because we observe an effect....while another system, identical effect...does not, or so we say. I think "intellect" is more than a bit of folklore. Seems to me intellect is more a description of how enamored we are of something we achieve (rather than a reference to the means we used to achieve it), especially since it doesn't impress us all that much (at least not enough to call it "intellect") when it's achieved by a variety of other structures - using a variety of means.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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