Quote:Show me a sub reality which comes into existence via some unintelligent natural process and my argument is demolished.

Define sub-reality first.

(November 30, 2014 at 3:49 pm)Heywood Wrote: I am saying that since we only observe sub realities coming into existence via the hand of intellect, that suggests that all sub realities come into existence via the hand of intellect.

and ignoring the whole "subreality" bit - you'd still be wrong. Minecraft is a procedural generation, understand?

(November 30, 2014 at 3:41 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(November 30, 2014 at 1:33 pm)Heywood Wrote: The universe is fined tuned....but not for life. The universe is fine tuned for emergent complexity....life is just one example of emergent complexity.

Really? How so? There is a hell of a lot of universe, more than my mind or yours can really comprehend, and life is the most complex thing we've found in it. And we haven't found much of any evidence of life elsewhere, just indications that it might be possible on some other planets. If it was designed for emergent complexity, it wasn't designed well. Mostly what there is is empty space.

You are conflating emergent complexity with life. Life is just one example of emergent complexity. The triple alpha process is another.

(November 30, 2014 at 3:52 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(November 30, 2014 at 3:41 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Really? How so? There is a hell of a lot of universe, more than my mind or yours can really comprehend, and life is the most complex thing we've found in it. And we haven't found much of any evidence of life elsewhere, just indications that it might be possible on some other planets. If it was designed for emergent complexity, it wasn't designed well. Mostly what there is is empty space.

You are conflating emergent complexity with life. Life is just one example of emergent complexity. The triple alpha process is another.

No, just suggesting that the complexity you want to get to is life and that life is much more complex than star formation.

(November 30, 2014 at 3:50 pm)Smaug Wrote:

Quote:Show me a sub reality which comes into existence via some unintelligent natural process and my argument is demolished.

Define sub-reality first.

How about....a procedural generation.

(November 30, 2014 at 3:52 pm)Heywood Wrote: Life is just one example of emergent complexity.

-in a procedural generation.

(November 30, 2014 at 3:55 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(November 30, 2014 at 3:52 pm)Heywood Wrote: You are conflating emergent complexity with life. Life is just one example of emergent complexity. The triple alpha process is another.

No, just suggesting that the complexity you want to get to is life and that life is much more complex than star formation.

I am not suggesting that the goal of all this emergent complexity is life. I am suggesting that our reality is an emergent complex system. Sustained emergent complexity is the goal of this fined tuned system we call the universe....not life.

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(November 30, 2014 at 3:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(November 30, 2014 at 3:52 pm)Heywood Wrote: Life is just one example of emergent complexity.

-in a procedural generation.

Intellect...it appears....is another example of emergent complexity. I'm surprised none of you jumped on that yet.

(November 30, 2014 at 1:33 pm)Heywood Wrote: The universe is fined tuned....but not for life. The universe is fine tuned for emergent complexity....life is just one example of emergent complexity.

Natural selection adjusts an organism to survive in the environment in which it finds itself. It does not adjust the environment to suit the organism. If the organism cannot adapt to changes, it dies.

(November 30, 2014 at 3:59 pm)Heywood Wrote: Intellect...it appears....is another example of emergent complexity. I'm surprised none of you jumped on that yet.

Which would be trouble....because now we're talking about the product creating the means of it's own production...huh? Since intellect is required and all that jazz, and we're limiting ourselves to observation, appeals to evidence.

Personally, I don't jump on intellect as an emergent property because I haven't seen any strong explanation of when or why it emerges, or why one system has it - and we say that it does because we observe an effect....while another system, identical effect...does not, or so we say. I think "intellect" is more than a bit of folklore. Seems to me intellect is more a description of how enamored we are of something we achieve (rather than a reference to the means we used to achieve it), especially since it doesn't impress us all that much (at least not enough to call it "intellect") when it's achieved by a variety of other structures - using a variety of means.