(December 1, 2014 at 7:12 pm)Heywood Wrote: A sub reality is a space continuum that is governed by rules. The space continuum of a subreality is not the space continuum of its parent reality.

Then "sub-reality" is an empty set for which we have no observations. This is also vastly different than anything you've previously offered in definition or explanation of a sub-reality. Procedural gens and even hand crafted simulations are in no way separated from any "parent reality". Both exist right here, in our spacetime continuum
(though it would be badass if I was actually genning spacetime continuums everytime I loaded a MC World...or despawned a chunk..RAGNAROK!)

(December 2, 2014 at 11:50 am)Heywood Wrote: We can make many different completely coherent mathematical models of the universe where the rules are different. There is no reason to believe the rules of the universe could be different. In fact in order to believe the rules of this universe are some brute fact of nature and absolutely had to be this way......one has to invent a means which require our specific rules to be a brute fact of nature.

I see no reason to invent things simply to justify a world view that our universe is the way it is because it simply could be no other way. This brute fact explanation is one of the ones I have rejected. Its certainly possible...but there is no reason to believe it is true other than it is possible.

I'm not inventing anything, it's called observation! No matter how fun or interesting the inquiry may be, arbitrarily assigning unobserved values to physical constants for the sake of seeing how the mathematical models used to describe our current understanding of the universe react is still just making shit up. The merits of god and the multiverse here are being built on an edifice of shit; one is the ancient placeholder for ignorance at the edge of our understanding and the other is teetering on the edge of pseudoscience.

(December 2, 2014 at 1:05 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Then "sub-reality" is an empty set for which we have no observations. This is also vastly different than anything you've previously offered in definition or explanation of a sub-reality. Procedural gens and even hand crafted simulations are in no way separated from any "parent reality". Both exist right here, in our spacetime continuum
(though it would be badass if I was actually genning spacetime continuums everytime I loaded a MC World...or despawned a chunk..RAGNAROK!)

This talk about sub-realities prompted me to play around with sub realities. I downloaded Second Life.

http://secondlife.com/?sourceid=0909-ser...fgodOlwAmQ

I explored that world for a bit. It seems to me that a mathematical description of a house in second life would be essentially the same as a mathematical description of my house. If mathematical descriptions of one thing are indistinguishable from a mathematical description of another thing then that tells me I am really looking at the same kind of thing......at least from an objective mathematical standpoint.

Second life and the evolution simulator I posted a video of earlier both represent what I consider to be sub-realities. Both are space continuums which are governed by specific rules. I am satisfied that sub realities exist within our reality. You may not be....but I am and I have to reconcile a couple of observations. One is sub realities appear to require the hand of intellect to come into existence....and two our reality looks like a sub reality of a larger reality. Those two observations suggest to me that an intellect was necessary for our reality to come into existence.

I would be -amazed- if a mathematical description of your second life house was even remotely close to a mathematical description of your actual house......the game is checking files and addresses, not counting inches. But feel free to describe your actual house mathematically, and we'll see how the game engine would handle that, eh?
(hey....do you actually play minecraft, btw? Alice and I have been known to build mud huts......you could hit a tree...maybe)

Meh, anyway....Shenanigans!

You're reasserting things you've been corrected upon multiple times. As you've already been made aware......

Quote:One is sub realities appear to require the hand of intellect to come into existence

......procedural generations don't require intellect. We use them, in part, for that very reason. Minecraft, Second Life, The spider sim......all are procedural generations. You have yet to present an example of a "sub-reality" that requires intellect. You've only managed to show sub realities that require rules. You've even defined "sub reality" as a procedural generation. This is a non starter.

-Do you understand?

I'll get to the second "observation" when you've shown a little progress on this first one.
(your sub realities, btw, are not -in- our reality...they -are- our reality, they're machines Heywood...not magic....not portals to another dimension.)

(November 30, 2014 at 3:43 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(November 30, 2014 at 1:36 pm)Heywood Wrote: Most coherent models of the universe do not result in sustained emergent complexity. Our is special in that it does.

I'd like either a citation with explanation, or just an explanation of any sort for that assertion.

Woodie doesn't do explanations. He just pulls shit out of his ass.

(December 2, 2014 at 6:34 pm)Heywood Wrote: This talk about sub-realities prompted me to play around with sub realities. I downloaded Second Life.

http://secondlife.com/?sourceid=0909-ser...fgodOlwAmQ

I explored that world for a bit. It seems to me that a mathematical description of a house in second life would be essentially the same as a mathematical description of my house. If mathematical descriptions of one thing are indistinguishable from a mathematical description of another thing then that tells me I am really looking at the same kind of thing......at least from an objective mathematical standpoint.

Second life and the evolution simulator I posted a video of earlier both represent what I consider to be sub-realities. Both are space continuums which are governed by specific rules. I am satisfied that sub realities exist within our reality. You may not be....but I am and I have to reconcile a couple of observations. One is sub realities appear to require the hand of intellect to come into existence....and two our reality looks like a sub reality of a larger reality. Those two observations suggest to me that an intellect was necessary for our reality to come into existence.

Let's have a definition of sub-reality first. You're coming up with examples, surely you can define it. Then we can determine just how much like our reality a sub-reality really is. ---- Careful though. If you put intellectually created in the definition, you've blown the argument.

if the universe was tuned for our life solar flares and other such anomalies that can destroy technology would not exist.
the earth would have more than enough resources. the sun would last longer than it normally would because one day it will be gone.
the solar system would have earth like planets, mars would have life (at one point it is speculated mars had life and it has water but frozen).
that's pretty much it.

(December 2, 2014 at 8:23 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Let's have a definition of sub-reality first. You're coming up with examples, surely you can define it. Then we can determine just how much like our reality a sub-reality really is. ---- Careful though. If you put intellectually created in the definition, you've blown the argument.

I offered this crude definition back in post 122.

(December 2, 2014 at 10:14 am)Heywood Wrote: A sub reality is a space continuum that is governed by rules. The space continuum of a subreality is not the space continuum of its parent reality.

(December 3, 2014 at 12:41 am)Heywood Wrote: [quote='Jenny A' pid='808821' dateline='1417566187']
Let's have a definition of sub-reality first. You're coming up with examples, surely you can define it. Then we can determine just how much like our reality a sub-reality really is. ---- Careful though. If you put intellectually created in the definition, you've blown the argument.

I offered this crude definition back in post 122.

(December 2, 2014 at 10:14 am)Heywood Wrote: A sub reality is a space continuum that is governed by rules. The space continuum of a subreality is not the space continuum of its parent reality.

It has rules, I get that. But what is a space continuum?

A sub reality.