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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
December 3, 2014 at 1:56 pm
(This post was last modified: December 3, 2014 at 1:57 pm by robvalue.)
Just sounds like special pleading for the reality where God lives, where the rules of the argument no longer apply for some reason.
Who said God, I didn't say God? Who said the creator was God? As I said much earlier, even if we granted you all of your argument all it gets you is some being in another reality who made a universe. I don't know what point you are trying to make, or is that it?
I call it the "not betting on the horse you think you're betting on" fallacy.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
December 3, 2014 at 1:57 pm
(December 3, 2014 at 1:44 pm)Heywood Wrote: I said our reality appears to be a sub reality. -except that it doesn't.
Quote:I also said that it appears that sub realities require creators.
-except that they don't.
Quote:I believe there must be some master reality that has always existed.
You believe many strange things, and?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
December 3, 2014 at 2:00 pm
That minecraft thing sounds appealing though.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
December 3, 2014 at 2:34 pm
(This post was last modified: December 3, 2014 at 2:35 pm by robvalue.)
This is the problem when you work backwards from a conclusion instead of forwards from the evidence.
Ironically, I did a lot of working backwards from the conclusion in science class at school because the experiment would never give me the results I knew it was meant to give.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
December 3, 2014 at 6:54 pm
(December 3, 2014 at 1:56 pm)robvalue Wrote: Just sounds like special pleading for the reality where God lives, where the rules of the argument no longer apply for some reason.
Who said God, I didn't say God? Who said the creator was God? As I said much earlier, even if we granted you all of your argument all it gets you is some being in another reality who made a universe. I don't know what point you are trying to make, or is that it?
I call it the "not betting on the horse you think you're betting on" fallacy.
For it to be a special pleading a sub-reality would have to be equivalent to the actual reality. A sub-reality is not equivalent to the actual reality because a sub reality is dependent upon another reality. Actual reality is not dependent on anything. Actual reality by definition is all there is. The two things, actual reality and sub reality are very different from each other....so there is no special pleading here.
My point is this: Consider the following two conjectures:
A) A being in a reality external to our own made our universe(or reality).
B) No being exists which made our universe(or reality).
Conjecture A can be substantiated with inductive reasoning. Conjecture B has no substantiation whatsoever.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
December 3, 2014 at 7:07 pm
Erm... How can I put this?
No.
Again, I ask what a master reality looks like, so you can compare it to a subreality and see the difference?
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
December 3, 2014 at 7:07 pm
(This post was last modified: December 3, 2014 at 7:09 pm by Heywood.)
(December 3, 2014 at 2:34 pm)robvalue Wrote: This is the problem when you work backwards from a conclusion instead of forwards from the evidence.
Ironically, I did a lot of working backwards from the conclusion in science class at school because the experiment would never give me the results I knew it was meant to give.
The conclusion I draw flows from the premises (which are based on observations) so there is no working backwards.
(December 3, 2014 at 7:07 pm)robvalue Wrote: Erm... How can I put this?
No.
Again, I ask what a master reality looks like, so you can compare it to a subreality and see the difference?
An actual reality or master reality isn't dependent on some external reality to exist. A sub reality depends on an external reality to exist.
I don't know how I can make the difference between the two any more clear.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
December 3, 2014 at 7:16 pm
I give up.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
December 3, 2014 at 7:24 pm
(December 3, 2014 at 7:16 pm)robvalue Wrote: I give up.
This might surprise you....but there was a time in my life when I thought God did not exist.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
December 3, 2014 at 7:24 pm
(December 3, 2014 at 6:54 pm)Heywood Wrote: My point is this: Consider the following two conjectures:
A) A being in a reality external to our own made our universe(or reality).
B) No being exists which made our universe(or reality).
Conjecture A can be substantiated with inductive reasoning. Conjecture B has no substantiation whatsoever.
You are becoming very ridiculous with this. A) fails on so many levels. Even if it could be substantiated you are immediately faced with an infinite regression.
The other huge mistake you are making with your sub-reality bullshit is that our simulations are not mimicking the act of creation, they are simply models based on our observations of the universe around us. There is absolutely nothing about this that requires a creator for our universe; unless of course you desire it and then it is just wishful thinking and a sloppy rationalization created to define your god into existence.
It's nonsense.
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