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December 30, 2014 at 7:13 pm (This post was last modified: December 30, 2014 at 7:16 pm by Godscreated.)
(December 30, 2014 at 6:47 pm)dyresand Wrote:
(December 30, 2014 at 6:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: I ask again, what color is the sky in your world.
GC
All Christianity really teaches you is how you are a worthless person and a sinner piece of trash. You don't have to be if you kiss gods ass and repent. The whole idea of sin is man made. And that no one does good because they are not doing it for god is also stupid. So the people who do good and are not doing it for god are bad, but people who only do good because of god are "good" because god is stamped on it. There is some real moral issues with that.
That's the craziest thing you've said yet, why would man make up something like sin, it doesn't make sense that people would condemn their own selves.
GC
(December 30, 2014 at 2:27 pm)Strider Wrote:
One of the most corrosive elements of Christianity is its assertions regarding the inherent worth of humanity. This psychologically damaging and twisted concept is endemic within the Christian faith. One of the most well-known hymns, "Amazing Grace", describes humans as wretches in need of saving. Faithfuls constantly claim that they aren't worthy of god's love yet he loves them regardless, such is his magnanimous nature. Christians believe that they constantly fail, fall short of the glory of god, despite any and all positive actions. Evangelicals make self-deprecating statements such as this one from an AFA mouthpiece:
Quote:God has every right and reason to purge me from His presence and send me to hell.
...
I don’t deserve to be happy or blessed. I don’t deserve the home I live in, the family I have, my awesome job, or the church family that claims me. I am not good. I know it. And if God was who so many people seem to think He is, I would have nothing in life to look forward to. Hell would be my destination, like it or not.
He actually believes he deserves hell, deserves eternal punishment for merely existing.
Furthermore, he believes that he does not deserve happiness or any of the other positive aspects of his life. Consider how utterly devastating those statements would be to a person with depression of any degree. How many people live their lives feeling shame and unworthiness for simply being alive because of the harmful Christian view of self-worth and self-esteem?
Self-esteem is viewed as particularly troublesome because some attribute this to pride, the presumed stumbling block to those trying to lead godly lives. Others like to tap dance around the concept of self-esteem saying that it's fine to have self-esteem as long as it stems from a person's identity in Christ rather than perceived notions of personal qualities and actions. However, this view is nearly as acidic because it teaches the individual that acknowledging his/her good qualities and positive actions is prideful, thus bad.
This toxic mindset is detrimental to day-to-day living, relationships, marriage, and so much more. This message promotes the idea that a person can be of no worth acting on his or her own without god; "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
The inherent shame and guilt that must come with Christianity if one is to follow it faithfully is poisonous, absolutely poisonous. Even if I were not an atheist, this sole concept of the self would be enough for me to abandon Christianity as the hateful, harmful, and revolting dogma that it is.
Where exactly does he say that?
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
December 30, 2014 at 7:36 pm (This post was last modified: December 30, 2014 at 7:36 pm by Strider.)
(December 30, 2014 at 7:13 pm)Godschild Wrote: Where exactly does he say that?
GC
It's actually within the article, not within the portion I selected. The link to the full article is at the bottom of the quote in my original post. Anyway, here is the statement copied and pasted from the article:
Quote:So even though I make a fool of myself regularly and dishonor Him occasionally and know I am deserving of the great eternal “write-off” (hell) I also know Jesus stands eternally ready to intercede for me (Romans 8:34) and that forgiveness and cleansing await a truly repentant mind and soul (1 John 1:9).
I bolded where he said he deserved hell. That is a very extreme, truly troubling thing to believe. The idea of people thinking so lowly of themselves and buying into this concept of worthlessness is disturbing. I especially detest this line of thinking being taught to children not old enough to know better.
"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." ~ Benjamin Franklin
(December 30, 2014 at 7:13 pm)Godschild Wrote: That's the craziest thing you've said yet, why would man make up something like sin, it doesn't make sense that people would condemn their own selves.
GC
It absolutely does make sense if you consider that the people who would have come up with sin would want other people to condemn themselves, thus making themselves vulnerable and amenable to the cure for that, which christianity provides if only you'll just do whatever god wants, which conveniently involves tithing to the priests...
But then, that would require actually thinking about this.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
December 30, 2014 at 7:49 pm (This post was last modified: December 30, 2014 at 7:52 pm by watchamadoodle.)
One aspect of this idea (that everybody is a dirty rag) is that everybody is equalized somewhat. In the real world, some people rise to the top and some people sink to the bottom. The people that rise to the top have self-worth, and others don't. With globalization and mega-sizing, the self-worth becomes concentrated in a fortunate few. Christianity teaches that everybody is equally worthless, but everybody is valued by Jesus. That's somewhat positive psychologically IMO.
Now that I'm an atheist, I take satisfaction in knowing that nobody great or small is very important in the larger scheme. I get my self-worth by imagining myself as a part of a self-aware universe. So I get the same positive psychological effect, but I don't have the baggage of Christianity.
(December 30, 2014 at 6:47 pm)dyresand Wrote: All Christianity really teaches you is how you are a worthless person and a sinner piece of trash. You don't have to be if you kiss gods ass and repent. The whole idea of sin is man made. And that no one does good because they are not doing it for god is also stupid. So the people who do good and are not doing it for god are bad, but people who only do good because of god are "good" because god is stamped on it. There is some real moral issues with that.
That's the craziest thing you've said yet, why would man make up something like sin, it doesn't make sense that people would condemn their own selves.
Really? You can't think of a reason for some guy to say that his community is living wrong, and his god is telling him to tell them that if they follow him, they'll be saved? double points if he already has enough power to inflict punishment for their disbelief? Sure, they can say he's as much a sinner as they are, but he can agree with them and still get them to do what he wants, because he has a personal line to a god. A vengeful god that will doom their souls if they don't listen to his "prophet". Since most people are superstitious, this is an easy way to control the masses. Especially when they're mostly illiterate, and need the few literate people to tell them what's in the holy book.
Does it really sound so crazy now? If so, drink less koolaid. Even if you had the original writings of the first christians and jews, the best you would have is the writings of people who claimed divine inspiration, and ordered everyone else to do as they say because they claim to be following a god they can't prove exists.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
(December 30, 2014 at 7:49 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: Christianity teaches that everybody is equally worthless, but everybody is valued by Jesus. That's somewhat positive psychologically IMO.
Quite the contrary. I teaches people to tow the line. And let's make one thing clear, we're basically talking about the church according to Paul, since Paul's teachings are the base on which christianity is really founded.
And Paul makes it known, that god put everyone in their place. He also teaches that slaves are to obey their masters, even if they are cruel. That was good enough for the Romans, since it wasn't encouraging equality or rebellion in some way and it was good enough for Luther, who, to save his own sorry hide, condemned the peasants rising up against the princes.
December 30, 2014 at 8:02 pm (This post was last modified: December 30, 2014 at 8:32 pm by dyresand.)
(December 30, 2014 at 7:57 pm)abaris Wrote:
(December 30, 2014 at 7:49 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: Christianity teaches that everybody is equally worthless, but everybody is valued by Jesus. That's somewhat positive psychologically IMO.
Quite the contrary. I teaches people to tow the line. And let's make one thing clear, we're basically talking about the church according to Paul, since Paul's teachings are the base on which christianity is really founded.
And Paul makes it known, that god put everyone in their place. He also teaches that slaves are to obey their masters, even if they are cruel. That was good enough for the Romans, since it wasn't encouraging equality or rebellion in some way and it was good enough for Luther, who, to save his own sorry hide, condemned the peasants rising up against the princes.
And it begs a bigger question why love and praise someone who will gladly let you suffer from the hands of a oppressive slave master. And also allows such vile acts to be forgiven if its in his name. God is in no way a good moral authority and he is not moral he is immoral
(December 30, 2014 at 4:24 pm)alpha male Wrote: @OP:
If god doesn't exist, then this doctrine, which you find disgusting, was created by men, and was popular enough to spread around the world and be followed at least nominally by 1 in 3 people.
Point is that your own argument indicates that people are pretty sick and twisted.
Reading the news headlines indicates the same.
Locally, there are still 28 hours and 54 minutes left of 2014, so it's likely I won't see a more thoroughly terrible argument than yours.
Christianity argues that all humans are wicked, evil, and deserve hell. No exceptions. Awful religions being man-made only proves that many people are ignorant, some of them are vicious and that most people go along with whatever is popular (or do so because it's not safe to do otherwise).
There are sick and twisted people in this world, but it takes a poisonous and misanthropic religion like Christianity to convince people that the overall human condition is worse off now than it has been at any prior point in human history.
I agree completely with the OP. This is my biggest regret for people unlucky enough to be born to Christians. For so many xtians it involves abdication of self.
Beyond the internal damage to individuals there is also the danger to the public good whenever one of these is entrusted with public office. The most blatant example was secretary of the interior, James Watts, under Reagan.
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