Not a theist, but i personally feel more comfortable believing there's something permanent in the universe, something that will remember all of this when it's gone. It's really a comfort thing with religion as well I think. Which is perfectly fine in my opinion. Everyone has their ways of coping with their fears.

(February 5, 2015 at 6:39 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: As it applies to the issue of intentionality, something either has it or it doesn’t. The needle of a thermostat only appears intent on reaching the set point, whereas a cheetah actually intends to nab zebras. I say the goal directed behavior of the thermostat is an illusion while the goal directed behavior of the cheetah is real – a difference of kind.

Can I ask why you constantly assume that there's a dichotomy here?

Quote:Likewise, as it applies to meaning, the idea that meaning can be found in a purely physical description of something is ludicrous.

Why do you think this? The last time I asked you something like this you tried shifting the burden of proof and demanded that I prove you wrong, but seriously, what observations led you to this conclusion? Leave aside the idea that someone disagrees with you- I don't necessarily, depending on your answer- and explain your position.

Quote: While the physical beads can represent the non-physical ideas of enumeration, no purely physical description of an abacus would ever reveal the significance of the beads. Again, we see a difference in kind between a sign and its significance.

So how did you come to the conclusion that significance can only be imbued from outside? And what is it about gods that allow them to imbue meaning? What's the actual quality that allows meaning to come into being? Because human beings are capable of imbuing meaning and purpose in other objects, as in your abacus example, so obviously they have that ability too; is there any reason they can't apply meaning and purpose to themselves? Must it be applied prior to the creation of a thing, and if so, wouldn't that mean the quality that brings meaning into existence is just... pre-existence?

That's not exactly an impressive quality, and if god doesn't have a pre-existing entity to bring him into existence, doesn't that mean god is meaningless and purposeless, just as you accuse others of being?

(February 5, 2015 at 9:47 pm)MechViking Wrote: Not a theist, but i personally feel more comfortable believing there's something permanent in the universe, something that will remember all of this when it's gone. It's really a comfort thing with religion as well I think. Which is perfectly fine in my opinion. Everyone has their ways of coping with their fears.

I think that's understandable but I might wonder how much longer our planet can sustain billions upon billions of people with their heads in the sand, or the clouds, disengaged with reality to whatever extent they're willing to dispose of time and ingenuity that could be spent working towards a better future for humanity, informing themselves with the skills for critical thinking, and not storing up for themselves illusory treasures in a world that passes away when they do.

(February 2, 2015 at 4:20 pm)Nope Wrote: The title of the thread is the question I would like answered but with one slight caveat. Could theists not respond with anything about the afterlife? I want to know what theists get out of having faith right now. If I need to explain the question further, I will.

HOPE & COMFORT

You get the peace of mind that the there's a reasonable chance your kid won't be molested by the priest you leave in charge of them.

(February 4, 2015 at 6:21 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: In response to Mister Agenda's question:

A while back I got hammered for equivocating atheism with ontological naturalist even though 99.9% of atheists tacitly accept it. For the study of nature, methodological naturalism right limits its inquiries to matter [material cause] and efficient cause. Formal and final causes are not considered. Ontological naturalists make the metaphysical claim that only material and efficient causes exist. Physical objects and events are not ‘about’ anything. They just are. For the ontological naturalist the apparent intentional behavior of some things, from thermostats to human beings, is an illusion. That means that any concept that hinges on intentionality, like meaning and purpose, is also just a phantasy. Thus, the ontological naturalist that says their life can have meaning is contradicting himself or herself.

You say that for the ontological naturalist the apparent intentional behavior of human beings is an illusion, but that does not seem to be a necessary consequence. It sounds like you are conflating it with the position that there is no such thing as free will.

It seems to be a pattern of yours that when someone holds a position that you have trouble parsing, you always conclude that they are contradicting their own position rather than considering that you may not fully understand their position.

But you are not necessarily wrong, of course. Hopefully the comments of others will illuminate this matter.

(February 5, 2015 at 10:23 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(February 5, 2015 at 6:39 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: As it applies to the issue of intentionality, something either has it or it doesn’t. The needle of a thermostat only appears intent on reaching the set point, whereas a cheetah actually intends to nab zebras. I say the goal directed behavior of the thermostat is an illusion while the goal directed behavior of the cheetah is real – a difference of kind.

Can I ask why you constantly assume that there's a dichotomy here?

When alternatives result in paradoxes and unsolvable dilemmas that means the proposed solutions are inadequate, incomplete, or down right false. The first alternative is that neither the thermostat nor the cheetah engage in goal-seeking behavior. The second alternative is that both the thermostat and the cheetah engage in goal-seeking behavior.
The first alternative posits that the cheetah is without intention. Anyone, but the most strident eliminative materialist, can see that that is false.
The second is false because it attributes mental properties to the thermostat. A panpsychist would argue that this may not be entirely false. And I am open to considering this a real possibility, but the current state of that theory is very inadequate.
The solution to the problem lies in recognizing the difference between essential and accidental properties. The goal-seeking behavior of the cheetah is an essential part of being a cheetah because the final end of any living thing is to live and thrive. It could not do if intentional behavior were removed. In contrast to this, the function of any artifact, like a thermostat is an accidental property of its composition. Any apparent goal-seeking behavior by the thermostat is derived from a person that has an intended goal in actuality.

(February 5, 2015 at 10:23 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Likewise, as it applies to meaning, the idea that meaning can be found in a purely physical description of something is ludicrous.

Why do you think this? … what observations led you to this conclusion? [/quote]Really? LOL! It should be obvious. What is the meaning of a rock? Or a waterfall? Or a caterpillar?

(February 5, 2015 at 10:23 pm)Esquilax Wrote: So how did you come to the conclusion that significance can only be imbued from outside? …What's the actual quality that allows meaning to come into being?

The meaning of things come from recognition of the ideas they instantiate or some correspondence with those ideas. To understand this, you must know a little something about the problem of universals, as conceived by Plato, refined by Aristotle, and perfected by the Schoolmen. Plato observed that part of what allows us to identify universals from particulars is that the particulars, to greater and lesser degrees, all manifest the same form. But Plato imagined these as forms as distinct entities, which was problematic for several reasons, primarily because forms multiply without restraint. Aristotle observed that forms, while real, don’t float around in some separate realm, but are always embodied. While this was an improvement, comparison between particulars to determine a common form is only really possible by referring to an infinite series of super-universals above the universals. The Scholastic solution accepts that forms are embodied but that the intellect perceives the idea of the form by means of abstraction. However the idea of a form must exist in potential before it can be actually manifest in the intellect. In order for something to move from potential to actuality it must do so by means of something already in act. Thus the idea must exist in full actuality. And since God is the only being that is fully in act, the perfect form of any idea must already be in His intellect.

Quote: While the physical beads can represent the non-physical ideas of enumeration, no purely physical description of an abacus would ever reveal the significance of the beads. Again, we see a difference in kind between a sign and its significance.

(February 5, 2015 at 10:23 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Because human beings are capable of imbuing meaning and purpose in other objects … is there any reason they can't apply meaning and purpose to themselves?

Duh! I said as much earlier. What is at issue is why we have that capacity. Having that capacity is inconsistent with ontological naturalism.

(February 5, 2015 at 10:23 pm)Esquilax Wrote: That's not exactly an impressive quality, and if god doesn't have a pre-existing entity to bring him into existence, doesn't that mean god is meaningless and purposeless, just as you accuse others of being?

Not at all. God is fully in act, as mentioned above.

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(February 6, 2015 at 11:37 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: You say that for the ontological naturalist the apparent intentional behavior of human beings is an illusion, but that does not seem to be a necessary consequence. It sounds like you are conflating it with the position that there is no such thing as free will.

I can see your point. Determinism logically follows if the physical universe is causally closed. That leaves no obvious demarcation points for the ?

(February 6, 2015 at 11:37 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: It seems to be a pattern of yours that when someone holds a position that you have trouble parsing, you always conclude that they are contradicting their own position rather than considering that you may not fully understand their position.

That is always a possibility. If so, I only do so when the topic is the mind-body connection, and I like to believe I have a pretty good grasp of the main theories. The reverse is much more likely. I make constant reference to and use the terms of neo-Scholastic philosophy, which is, as you say, hard to parse.

(February 6, 2015 at 4:40 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(February 5, 2015 at 10:23 pm)Esquilax Wrote: So how did you come to the conclusion that significance can only be imbued from outside? …What's the actual quality that allows meaning to come into being?

The meaning of things come from recognition of the ideas they instantiate or some correspondence with those ideas.

This video is fairly long, but the short of it is that they track the learning of a word through association. I realize that there are philosophical objections to empiricism, but doesn't this provide an alternative explanation of how meaning is developed, how words acquire meaning, by learning?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE4ce4mexrU

(February 5, 2015 at 6:17 pm)Nope Wrote:

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Quote:Through my Christian faith I have come to value others more than I did before hand, I care for others in a special way, one that helps me give more of me and not look to receive anything in return, though much comes my way in the fact I see the effects it has on others.

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Thank you for answering the question. Did you treat people badly before you became a Christian?
I used people a lot, and said many out of the way stuff that wasn't necessary and if push came to shove I could and did hurt people. Thankfully all that's all gone.

Quote:[hide]Peace, there's a peace that goes beyond understanding, something I did not understand before, something I treasure now. Also the revelations that come from God through the Holy Spirit, I receive an understanding of difficult scripture, see new things when I study scripture, many of these things are help in living the Christian life I chose.[hide]

Quote:I think that this is a major draw of religion. Life can be hard and having the feeling that something larger and wiser than you is in control is probably very comforting.

I have to disagree, it will be a part of it later, but not the reason for becoming a Christian.

GC

That's great, GC. You should be proud of yourself and thankful that you were lucky enough to learn how to live a happier life, even if you haven't yet discovered that myth-making for moral purposes is an ancient psychological aid created for those such as yourself to benefit from (when not at others' expense, of course, which happens all too often unfortunately).