There is a verse in the bible that says when you offend someone, you're supposed to ask their forgiveness before you ask for Yahweh's, but if they don't forgive you then it's a sin. So if they're unable to forgive those who cause them harm, they'll be screwed twice over. Also death row inmates probably aren't allowed to go around asking forgiveness for everyone they've wronged before making the forgiveness prayer.

(February 16, 2015 at 12:34 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: A while back, I made a thread about Christian morality having bad incentives. It was mainly a thread to say that Christianity doesn't compel you to do good, but rather to swear an oath of fealty. Throughout the thread, at least one apologist told me that you can't game the system to sin knowing that you will be forgiven later, because that isn't a non-repentant lifestyle. I wasn't really trying to make that point in the thread, but I actually realized something: you totally can game the system like that. Here we go:

There is a difference between you can (that something is possible) and that you can't (that something is possible but shouldn't be done).

(February 16, 2015 at 12:34 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So, according to the Bible, there is only one unforgivable sin (blaspheming the Holy Spirit). That tautologically means that every other sin is forgivable. So, if I have a moment of weakness and sin, I can ask for forgiveness and repent. Christians will agree with that statement; it's part and parcel to their world view.

Premise accepted.

(February 16, 2015 at 12:34 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: Now, if I plan to sin knowing that I can ask for forgiveness later, sin, and then ask for forgiveness, the very act of planning to game the system is a forgivable sin. When I ask for forgiveness, all I have to do is apologize both for the sin and for planning to game the system.

Premise accepted.

(February 16, 2015 at 12:34 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: Now, apologists will understandably take issue with that second part, and I get that. It looks super immoral, but that's not because the person gaming the system is especially heinous, but because their morality system is just that bad. Look at the system. What's the difference between spontaneous and planned sin?

Premise not accepted. You haven't appropriately correlated 'gaming the system' with 'immoral behavior' with 'poor moral system.' To further explain. If gaming the system isn't an immoral [or heinous] act then there's nothing wrong with doing it and it therefore wouldn't be a part of the moral system at all. If gaming the system is immoral, then it would be a part of the moral system and it would be wrong to do.

(February 16, 2015 at 12:34 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: 1) If you believe you have to be truly contrite to be absolved of sin, would anyone ever get into heaven?

No.

(February 16, 2015 at 12:34 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: I don't think anyone feels that bad about everything they do. What if you take God's name in vain seconds before being killed in a car crash?

Sin's are forgiven at the cross (Colossians 2:14) not at the time of confession.

(February 16, 2015 at 12:34 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: It would seem if the system were strict enough to weed out those trying to game it, that people legitimately trying to follow the system would get weeded out, too.

How so?

(February 16, 2015 at 12:34 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: 2) If you believe that the act of trying to game the system is somehow worse than simply spontaneously sinning, it's special pleading.

Not a valid use of 'special pleading.' It would be special pleading if there were different level's of 'wrongness' for the same exact sin, or different punishments for the same sin.

(February 16, 2015 at 12:34 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: Unless you can show me some scripture to show that this is clearly the case, it's likely an ad hoc assertion to make the system look less pointless. I mean, yes, you can make the point that so long as you plan to sin, you aren't repentant, and you're playing with fire. You could be hit by a truck at any time, so why take that risk, but see my point above. How much are you allowed to "spontaneously" sin before you stop being repentant? I submit that setting those goal posts to allow "normal" levels of sin into heaven but to exclude premeditated sin is just ad hoc special pleading.

Salvation is through faith alone, it is not by works so that no man may boast.

Christian morality is nothing but a puerile game of empty threats, unbelievable lies, shabby intimidations, and low brow enticements.

Sounds good, I'll take half a dozen.

(February 17, 2015 at 5:54 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: There is a difference between you can (that something is possible) and that you can't (that something is possible but shouldn't be done).

If we are going to play word nazi, get it right. You can do something that is possible, you cannot do something that is not possible. There is no choice involved. If a choice is involved then you may or may not do something that is possible. 'Can' opens the options, i.e., allows for a choice. 'Cannot' closes the options, i.e., it is not possible, ergo, no choice.

So, yes, you can game the system.

(February 17, 2015 at 7:45 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(February 17, 2015 at 5:54 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: There is a difference between you can (that something is possible) and that you can't (that something is possible but shouldn't be done).

If we are going to play word nazi, get it right. You can do something that is possible, you cannot do something that is not possible. There is no choice involved. If a choice is involved then you may or may not do something that is possible. 'Can' opens the options, i.e., allows for a choice. 'Cannot' closes the options, i.e., it is not possible, ergo, no choice.

So, yes, you can game the system.

You can't drive more than 20mph in a school zone. Person A says this statement is true. Person B says this statement is false. Depending upon the person's definition of 'can't' both could be right.

I'm seeking clarification from the OP and the apologist he interacted with as to what they meant by can't.

(February 17, 2015 at 5:54 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Sin's are forgiven at the cross (Colossians 2:14) not at the time of confession.
...
Salvation is through faith alone, it is not by works so that no man may boast.

So, how does repentance factor into this? Does it matter or is it necessary for salvation?

(February 18, 2015 at 2:25 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:

(February 17, 2015 at 5:54 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Sin's are forgiven at the cross (Colossians 2:14) not at the time of confession.
...
Salvation is through faith alone, it is not by works so that no man may boast.

So, how does repentance factor into this? Does it matter or is it necessary for salvation?

If orangebox is a protestant (especially evangelical/calvinist/lutheran sects), then faith alone is all you need. Confession/repentance/good works aren't required.

(February 18, 2015 at 2:25 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:

(February 17, 2015 at 5:54 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Sin's are forgiven at the cross (Colossians 2:14) not at the time of confession.
...
Salvation is through faith alone, it is not by works so that no man may boast.

So, how does repentance factor into this? Does it matter or is it necessary for salvation?

A simple way to put it is that "repentance is the result of salvation." It is a necessary result of salvation, but not a prerequisite for it.

More info here.

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(February 18, 2015 at 2:27 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(February 18, 2015 at 2:25 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So, how does repentance factor into this? Does it matter or is it necessary for salvation?

If orangebox is a protestant (especially evangelical/calvinist/lutheran sects), then faith alone is all you need. Confession/repentance/good works aren't required.

Just going by what the Bible says:

Ephesians 2:8-9/Romans3:28-30/4:5/5:1/9:30/10:4/11:6/Galatians 2:16,21/3:5-6,24/Philippians 3:9.

(February 18, 2015 at 11:22 am)orangebox21 Wrote:

(February 17, 2015 at 7:45 pm)IATIA Wrote: If we are going to play word nazi, get it right. You can do something that is possible, you cannot do something that is not possible. There is no choice involved. If a choice is involved then you may or may not do something that is possible. 'Can' opens the options, i.e., allows for a choice. 'Cannot' closes the options, i.e., it is not possible, ergo, no choice.

So, yes, you can game the system.

You can't drive more than 20mph in a school zone.

Of course you can. You might get a ticket, but it is possible. You can speed through a school zone.