(May 8, 2015 at 8:46 pm)AFTT47 Wrote:

(May 8, 2015 at 8:04 pm)mbk734 Wrote: Theist+rational=oxymoron

Bad stereotype. Most religious people are perfectly rational in all areas of their lives except religion. And even then, the majority of religious folk are moderate about it. Your generalization is unjustified.

So you admit they're mostly rational, just not about the religion part which is my point exactly. Thank you for agreeing with me!

(May 8, 2015 at 6:46 pm)Alex K Wrote: Scientology is mainly against psychiatry because Hubbard was pissed that the psychiatrists weren't impressed by his ideas in Dianetics.

Though by chance, Hubbard nonetheless had company in his skeptical attitude toward psychiatry. From the 1950s onward, Thomas Szasz, a psychiatrist, thought mental illness was largely a myth. Perhaps that's extreme, but the profession certainly has a tendency to label anything undesirable or outside of social norms as a disorder. Thus we have "gender identity disorder" defined in the DSM V now that homosexuality was dropped in 1973. It's probably insurance-driven, the underwriters won't pay for sex-change surgeries without a DSM diagnosis. So maybe adding religious belief to the list isn't so absurd; then insurance will cover the services of the deprogrammers.

(May 8, 2015 at 6:33 pm)mbk734 Wrote: From a psychiatrist's perspective, religion can be considered a delusion or illness (The God Delusion). This is why many religions are anti-psychiatry (Scientology is very anti-psychiatry). Hearing voices (God, angels, or demons) is a symptom of psychosis in mental illness. Speaking in tongues? Exorcisms? Religious delusions are common among the mentally ill and as we know the "sane" too. There is a book called the Three Christs of Ypsilanti about three schizophrenic patients that thought they were Jesus. Prayer is trying to talk to "God." Anyone that talks to God needs an antipsychotic and a mood stabilizer. I should know, part of my bipolar when I am manic is religiosity and obsession over existence of God, religion, the meaning of life and death. When I am stable, I am more rational and atheist in my thinking.

http://www.bible.ca/psychiatry/psychiatr...hrenic.htm

I'm not a psychologist, just got a little BA in it, but being religious isn't diagnosable as a mental illness. Some schizophrenics sometimes hear religiously-themed voices or suffer from religion-oriented disorganized thinking; but their illness is schizophrenia, not religion, nor is it caused by religion.

Speaking in tongues is eccentric, not a mental illness. When they do it in the checkout line at the supermarket, it may be time to start talking about mental illness.

Your personal experience with prayer and bipolar disorder does not  mean other people who pray have a disorder, and it certainly doesn't  mean that anti-psychotics or mood stabilizers are  needed in their cases.

People are social animals and it is normal for us to act to fit into the groups to which we belong and believe what the people we care about and admire have shown us they believe since before we could talk. Religion isn't a mental illness, it's fundamentally an idea. It can be a dangerous one, but unless a person really does suffer from a mental illness as well, their religion is just an opinion ultimately based on other people having the same opinion. It's not a sickness, it's just not rationally grounded. Lots of things people believe aren't rationally grounded, it's almost impossible to not have such beliefs without realizing it.

(May 8, 2015 at 7:54 pm)whateverist Wrote: I don't know about that but it seems a little over the top to conclude religion is mental illness.  I know plenty of people who are theist and entirely rational.  I doubt it.

Lots of people are otherwise rational but delusional on some particular point:  religion, a conspiracy theory, the wonderfulness of their abusive significant other, their talent, their chances of winning the lottery, etc.   But if a person belived in the kind of delusion that is most religions and no one else believed it, it would be considered an mental illness.

Yeah, if religion wasn't a recognized social construct it would seem very strange for someone to claim a guy in the sky was talking in his head who had the power of life, death, and eternal reward or punishment.

The other thing is that rational theists on the whole don't believe as many literal things and tend to acknowledge no one exactly knows how things are to be interpreted.  My counter example, Bill Moyers, famously did a series of interviews with Joseph Campbell on mythological themes.  I have no idea exactly how he holds his baptist beliefs, but on that series he showed great subtlety in discussing the themes of Christian religion right along side other religious themes, both current and archaic.

We've had other theists come to this site with impressive credentials in science.  Michael comes to mind.  He was a 'lay brother' in a Christian order (Benedictines) and did some high level work as a scientist.  Can't say I understand what I just said exactly, but he did impress me.  And he wasn't keen to convert anyone, though I think he did care to represent his group well.

(May 8, 2015 at 10:19 pm)mbk734 Wrote:

(May 8, 2015 at 8:46 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: Bad stereotype. Most religious people are perfectly rational in all areas of their lives except religion. And even then, the majority of religious folk are moderate about it. Your generalization is unjustified.

So you admit they're mostly rational, just not about the religion part which is my point exactly. Thank you for agreeing with me!

I'm not exactly agreeing with you because what you are saying is your point does not jive with the generalization that religion = mental illness. I think it's important to point this out because that kind of generalization is along the same lines as religious people saying things like atheism = amorality or even immorality. Generalizations like that are bad arguments regardless of who is making them.

I don't feel it's technically a mental illness. However, when the person is radical, and thinks god is answering his/her prayers, or actually thinks he/she is carrying on a conversation with a spiritual deity, there is some type of delusion going on there. Religion can lead to loss of reality and very hazardous, delusional behavior. People will pray to jesus to heal their kid from a life-threatening curable illness without seeking medical attention, or they might stop looking for a job because they have all the faith in the world that god will bring them food and pay their bills. Religion is exceedingly dangerous.

We had president Bush, who believed god told him to invade Iraq. How these kinds of people are considered electable, is beyond me.

Religion isn't technically a mental illness, but there is a definite likelihood of it becoming one, when practiced by radical, gullible, close-minded people.

(May 8, 2015 at 7:15 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Hubbard was nuts.

I think Hubbard ended up a bit nuts because he started believing his own press.  He created Scientology because he knew that the way to make money was to create a religion, but when he was surrounded by fawning sycophants who told him how wonderful he was, he bought into it and devolved into the poor excuse for a human he ended up.

---

(May 8, 2015 at 7:54 pm)whateverist Wrote: I don't know about that but it seems a little over the top to conclude religion is mental illness.  I know plenty of people who are theist and entirely rational.  I doubt it.

No, you cannot believe something for which there is no evidence and still be rational.  It's an oxymoron.

My opinion is that it's more accurate to say religious beliefs can mimic certain effects of mental illness. The further problem is whether people really believe what they say they are experiencing, or if they are saying it to fit in.

I agree it is a real problem. It makes genuine mental illness harder to diagnose and treat. Encouraging people by treating what sounds like delusion as a good thing is dangerous.

(May 9, 2015 at 2:37 am)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: Religion isn't technically a mental illness, but there is a definite likelihood of it becoming one, when practiced by radical, gullible, close-minded people.

People are suggestible. If the culture you are a part of endorses certain ideas, it's easy for you to endorse them as well. It's a social phenomenon, not a mental illness. This is why "culturally accepted beliefs" are excluded from diagnosis as a mental disorder. I have a history of delusions, being schizoaffective, and religious beliefs are not in the same ballpark. Humans are capable of extreme behaviors under the power of suggestion, that doesn't make them mentally ill. You debase the experience of those with real mental illness and muddy the picture of people without it.

Mental illness diagnoses are designed to group people who might respond to specific treatment together to aid treatment. Religious people are not in need of treatment for mental illness, and so the whole concept of a mental illness diagnosis for them is fundamentally flawed. It's an overreaction to the dissonance between what you believe and they believe. Your beliefs about what is 'rational' don't justify psychologizing people just because you don't share their viewpoint on the rationality of belief, even extreme belief. Extreme beliefs may be unwise, but they aren't per se an illness.