(May 15, 2015 at 5:27 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: How do we know when we've gotten something wrong?  The point I'm attempting to make is that by what measure (standard) do we determine that a society got something wrong?  How do we decide that the Nazis were wrong to haul the Jews away and kill millions of them?  Without God, it seems to me that we are left to decide what is just or unjust by majority opinion.  I think that is unacceptable given the history of even the past century.  It is as though human beings are incapable of truly living up to their potential.  Do you think that the past 100 years of human history shows that humans have learned anything useful about morality and how to promote justice for all? 

I can't speak for everyone, but I get my morality from a reasonable analysis of the consequences of my actions. Things are objectively bad. Forcing or tricking an innnocent person into drinking bleach will always be bad because the effects of bleach are objective no matter who has an opinion on it. A lot of things are subjective but some are objective. For the Mayans, sacrificing a person every day was perfectly moral because it made the sun rise every day. Just saying that morality is a lot more complicated than just some supreme being dictating what is good and bad.

(May 15, 2015 at 5:27 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: How do we know when we've gotten something wrong?  The point I'm attempting to make is that by what measure (standard) do we determine that a society got something wrong? 

Generally, we don't, until the people we fucked over start to make enough noise, and people who care start to listen.

(May 15, 2015 at 5:27 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: How do we decide that the Nazis were wrong to haul the Jews away and kill millions of them?  Without God, it seems to me that we are left to decide what is just or unjust by majority opinion. 

Do you think everyone was okay with it in the 30's-40's? Do you honestly think that without that book, people would grow up with no idea that rounding up millions of people and slaughtering them is a bad thing? Also, to see how quickly most people can be influenced to do terrible things, read about the Milgram experiments. How objective is morality, really?

(May 15, 2015 at 5:27 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: I think that is unacceptable given the history of even the past century.  It is as though human beings are incapable of truly living up to their potential.  Do you think that the past 100 years of human history shows that humans have learned anything useful about morality and how to promote justice for all? 

I do. In the last 100 years, women have been given the right to vote, Jim Crow laws were booted, desegregation happened, gays went from being considered a diseased mind to a natural form of sexual expression, we will see marriage equality this year, transgendered people are given a voice, you can say you're an atheist out loud and generally not fear for your safety, and we are working towards erasing gender gaps. The US is objectively a better place. All this progress despite dragging along the kicking and screaming moral toddler that is Christianity.

(May 15, 2015 at 5:27 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: How do we know when we've gotten something wrong?  The point I'm attempting to make is that by what measure (standard) do we determine that a society got something wrong?  How do we decide that the Nazis were wrong to haul the Jews away and kill millions of them?  Without God, it seems to me that we are left to decide what is just or unjust by majority opinion.  I think that is unacceptable given the history of even the past century.  It is as though human beings are incapable of truly living up to their potential.  Do you think that the past 100 years of human history shows that humans have learned anything useful about morality and how to promote justice for all? 

Maybe you missed my earlier post. 

Here it is again:

The standard is the physical reality we all share. 


We all have (more or less) the same physical bodies, inhabiting the same physical universe. From this, we can extrapolate that what I need for my well being is almost assuredly the same things as the vast majority of humanity also needs. 

Life is preferable to death, health is preferable to disease, freedom is preferable to slavery, comfort is preferable to pain, etc. 

It doesn't take much to figure out that, since I do not want to live in a society that is  rampant with murder, theft, torture, rape, etc, it is best to create laws to prevent them, and to live by them myself. 




You want a simple test on knowing when we get something wrong?


Ask the victims. 


You know how you can tell that the Nazis got it wrong? Ask the victims in the concentration camps how their well being was.

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(May 15, 2015 at 5:43 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: The problem isn't in the idea that all human beings have certain inherent rights as human beings, in this case the problem was with those who wanted to oppress and enslave other human beings...merely on the basis of race.  If there is no God, how would we have determined that race-based slavery was wrong?

I could play the easy card, and quote the passages in the Bible where Yahweh condones slavery. You should read Exodus 21. Your god condones owning slaves from neighboring countries.

But more to the point, we can tell that slavery is wrong by asking the slaves how they feel about it. Then, using empathy, put yourself in the same place and imagine how you would feel.

(May 15, 2015 at 5:48 pm)Crossless1 Wrote:

(May 15, 2015 at 5:43 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: The problem isn't in the idea that all human beings have certain inherent rights as human beings, in this case the problem was with those who wanted to oppress and enslave other human beings...merely on the basis of race.  If there is no God, how would we have determined that race-based slavery was wrong?

Ok, now you owe me a new keyboard.  You claim there is a god and that the Bible is his word.  Where in the Bible do you get the idea that slavery is wrong? 

Are you yanking our chains?

I don't recall having said that slavery is wrong.

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(May 15, 2015 at 5:58 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

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(May 15, 2015 at 5:43 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: The problem isn't in the idea that all human beings have certain inherent rights as human beings, in this case the problem was with those who wanted to oppress and enslave other human beings...merely on the basis of race.  If there is no God, how would we have determined that race-based slavery was wrong?

I could play the easy card, and quote the passages in the Bible where Yahweh condones slavery. You should read Exodus 21. Your god condones owning slaves from neighboring countries.

But more to the point, we can tell that slavery is wrong by asking the slaves how they feel about it. Then, using empathy, put yourself in the same place and imagine how you would feel.

In your opinion, is empathy an adequate justification for all of our actions?

(May 15, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: I don't recall having said that slavery is wrong.

Welcome.

Do you believe slavery is wrong? Do you think the bible says slavery is wrong?

(May 15, 2015 at 2:21 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: Hello everyone!  I'm a new member to AF.  First, a tiny introductory note just to let you know a little about me.  I was an atheist from about age 15 to 27.  I came from a very strict baptist family background, and I guess you could say that I was somewhat oppressed by my strict religious upbringing.  So I rebelled against my parents, my religion, and God.  At the age of 27, one of my friends loaned me a book called "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell.  That book changed my views completely.  Since then I've seen lots of additional reasons to believe in the God of the bible.

The universe is orderly and purposeful in certain ways.  How could impersonal stuff like matter and energy "obey" laws of any kind?  Where do the laws of nature and the laws of logic come from?  If there is no god, why do so many atheists care so much about the non-existence of a supposedly fictional deity?  Please don't take any offense to my words.  I'm not trying to offend anyone here.  I'm just asking a few questions that seem to be fair.

The universe isn't orderly is chaotic and hostile towards living life and well humanity appeared a bit late to the party and well the universe itself is on the verge of collapse. That being said we are lucky were on a planet that supports advanced life forms or else we would not be so advance. 


Matter and energy are the same thing they follow the laws of physics, just like you or me we are subjected to newtons law of motion. 


Logic has no laws, you make a observation collect data and use it, meaning using valid information for a argument or conversation. There is no laws to nature the end.
Formation of matter after the big bang mostly Hydrogen trace amounts of Helium and trace amounts of lithium and beryllium. Pretty much what happens to Hydrogen when it started to cool down
it started to clump together creating other elements. Pretty much use google and search this stuff up i could keep going on.

I can say there is no god for this simple reason. We as humans never have any documented cases of the supernatural, 0 documented cases of the supernatural. Even if a god did exist and interfered with with space or even did something here on earth we would be able to detect it. So no a god does not exist the end. 

Is "race-based" slavery wrong because the bible says so, or did the bible just get that one right?

I'll leave it to those who care what the bible says to pick apart whether the bible indeed says that. I've certainly heard the bit about the slavery mentioned in the bible being of a non-raced based variety, and therefore acceptable. Of course most people who don't rely on authoritative sources for their moral thinking would strongly question whether any variety of slavery is okay. But if that is what our new member has in mind, I'd like to know where he thinks the bible calls out race-based slavery, or, where it specifies the characteristics which render some varieties of slavery blessed in the eyes of the god thingy.

Oh and welcome, you've been busy today.

(May 15, 2015 at 8:38 pm)whateverist Wrote: Is "race-based" slavery wrong because the bible says so, or did the bible just get that one right?

I'll leave it to those who care what the bible says to pick apart whether the bible indeed says that.  I've certainly heard the bit about the slavery mentioned in the bible being of a non-raced based variety, and therefore acceptable.  Of course most people who don't rely on authoritative sources for their moral thinking would strongly question whether any variety of slavery is okay.  But if that is what our new member has in mind, I'd like to know where he thinks the bible calls out race-based slavery, or, where it specifies the characteristics which render some varieties of slavery blessed in the eyes of the god thingy.

Oh and welcome, you've been busy today.

Pretty sure everyone during biblical days more or less looked the same except for the Romans so...hmm... anyone was free reign to make a slave.
Race based slavery was really much invented because people's ignorance saw people were darker skin were animals and free labor and also sub human. 

We need to build a slavery simulation machine, to see how long people who think slavery is OK could stand it before begging to be unplugged from it.

The whole idea of "race" is actually a modern concept anyway. Names like "black" and "white" to refer to Africans and Europeans is a modern classification that was invented during colonial times, to promote ideas of "white supremacy". In ancient times, physical characteristics like dark skin or blonde hair would have simply been markers of one's geographical origins, but other than that it didn't hold much significance. Most ethnic conflicts in the ancient world were more to do with culture or competition for resources than they did with superiority complexes.