The crap is so hard to swollow Rob, that they go every Sunday to be reminded that it's medicine they need to take for a better afterlife and a guarantee of protection of sorts.
Sure they charge more than the mafia, but obviously worth it.

(June 25, 2015 at 12:22 am)robvalue Wrote: Tonechase: Indeed, I believe the "existence" of all the specific comic book style gods relies almost entirely on indoctrination. If people stopped hammering young, vulnerable minds with mythical gibberish presented as fact, they would reach the age of reason and would be able to make an unbiased, informed decision for themselves. And I think we know what that would be, on the whole. Present someone with developed critical thinking and no presuppositions the bible or the Quran, and (with no coercion) they will most likely reject it as silly stories. So without this oral myth that these books actually have any authority, it wouldn't matter that they exist or what they say any more than Harry Potter does.

People on some level must know this, since they continue to bombard their children as soon as they possibly can in order to make sure this crap sticks. Take away a couple of generations of indoctrination, and I'd give you 100-1 that Yahweh and Allah would fade into obscurity.

FAITH = Forever Actively Indoctrinating The Helpless

Regarding your statement:

"People on some level must know this, since they continue to bombard their children as soon as they possibly can in order to make sure this crap sticks."

That isn't necessarily true.  Parents teach their children things they regard as important.  Like fire burns and stoves can be hot, so they teach their children about that.  Likewise, if the parents believe in hell, they will want to teach their children to avoid it, too.

It is the same motivation in both cases, teaching children to avoid things that are dangerous and bad.

(June 17, 2015 at 11:47 am)Spacetime Wrote: As I started to investigate my own religion, I began to cast out doctrines like hell... because you have a very difficult problem with theodicy if you hold to it.  I then decided that the evil that occurs now is the most pressing issue if hell is out of the equation.  What use is my God if He doesn't intervene?  Therefore, God must not be a personal God.

I know the bible is not historically accurate, we can prove the documents are fables.  I know we have no evidence for the suspension of physical laws to allow for the possibility of miracles.  I know human biology doesn't allow for something like a virgin birth.

I just can't seem to give it up.  If I've cast out the doctrine of hell, you'd say I have nothing to fear.  I've drawn out all that I cannot hold to if I am going to hold to that which is true, there's nothing left.  Absolutely nothing.  My fear is entirely irrational.

My own Grandmother threatened me with hell.  A girl I liked in high school... I asked her "So if I don't believe in Jesus, but am a good person, I'm still going to go to hell?"  When she said "I'm sorry, but yes."  I literally burst into tears in art class.

Perhaps it's those experiences that still hold me hostage to the Church.  My Grandmother sends my children books that I have to go through to weed out the crazy shit.  I'm embarrassed and ashamed to tell this story, but my eldest boy toasted the end of the world in front of my atheist parents during their last visit before supper.  The reaction he got sent him into tears.  I, of course, comforted him.  I teach my children that there is no hell, but then he clings to the return of Christ when this loving God comes back to destroy the Earth?

It's all complete and utter bullshit.  But I'm so f'ing scared to denounce it for my children's sake.  I am programmed to not say anything bad about Christ.  I literally can't... and I've even tried.  I can even tell you honestly that I love Christ (seriously, no joke).  But when I look at these things critically, there's nothing left for me to hold on to.

Church has been so good for my wife and children, though.  I'm afraid of what my wife will think of me.  I'm afraid I would be taking something good away from them if I am openly agnostic.  I'm not incredibly smart or anything, but they look to me for standards of goodness.

If I go to the clergy with these thoughts, I'm afraid I'm only going to get more of the same.  That's why I'm posting here.  I could use a little unbiased encouragement, maybe, from someone who has been through the same thing.

@OP

They threw the doctrines of hell in the bible as a last addition it was never in the original. It was added because back then people questioned the bible
and people stopped throwing money towards the church as people left they had the light bulb idea to scare them back into believing. Anyways its good
to see a theist think the idea of hell is absurd it really is that would mean that said being god is clearly not all loving. But even still god of the bible should
be question just as bad as hell and satan.

(June 25, 2015 at 10:01 am)dyresand Wrote: @OP

They threw the doctrines of hell in the bible as a last addition it was never in the original. It was added because back then people questioned the bible
and people stopped throwing money towards the church as people left they had the light bulb idea to scare them back into believing. Anyways its good
to see a theist think the idea of hell is absurd it really is that would mean that said being god is clearly not all loving. But even still god of the bible should
be question just as bad as hell and satan.

These things lead to my giving up belief... the most profound that I remember at the moment (list not intended to be all inclusive);
10) Dinosaurs (the first one, when I was about 5... so to believers reading this, don't talk shit on dinosaurs to a 5 year old)
9) My Punjabi caretaker is going to hell (again, about 5 years old)
8) God can't just forgive everyone because... just because. (about 12 years old)
7) The Anglicans and Catholics are going to hell also (about 14 years old, when I sang in a Choir all around Europe, met some pretty nice folks. But "that's cool that you met some new people across the pond, they're going to hell.")
6) The incident where my crush told me in High School that I'll go to hell if I don't believe in Christ (at this point, I was only pretending to believe... age 16)
5) My experience in Iraq. I was an investigator in Iraq. Orthodox Christians there literally dig tunnels to the Church so they don't have to be killed on the way, by "more pious" Islamic fanatics. I thought, "If these people are going to hell, then I'm going with them." Soft-ass American Christians haven't even dipped their toes into real persecution, ever whining about the "War on Christmas". I converted, my wife converted, and my children were baptized and Chrismated in the Holy Orthodox Faith.
4) When I discovered that... when it comes down to it, even the Orthodox Church believes in a literal place of hellfire where God allows people to be tortured. Now this is more difficult to discover, especially if you're educated in early Christian literature and Church history. I know that sounds ridiculous, but, it was. This is because canonical law, Holy Tradition, and practice are entirely separate things.*
3) When I found out that my Vladika Confessor was silenced on important social & theological issues because he taught that "[Christ will come back to judge no one, blood atonement is a vicious heresy, hellfire & brimstone is contradictory to the central revelation of Christ]". I was scared at this point, that someone who had all of my respect and veneration (not in a weird cult way) as, quite possibly, a living Saint was silenced by the Church.
2) Getting into philosophy and science - very deep, in fact. Becoming conversant on issues of cosmology, biology, and physics with undergrad students that major in those studies. I know enough to get along in a conversation, but certainly not as much as they do.
1) The Euthyphro Dilemma <-<-<-<-<- demands that you put down your assumptions and holds you accountable for your theology and philosophy. The single most important question to a theist, that demonstrates that the God of scripture cannot be all those things that scripture attributes to him.

*Icons of the Father (Slavonic traditions defy this), kneeling on Sundays (except if you're performing confession), etc. etc. etc.

(June 25, 2015 at 9:55 am)Pyrrho Wrote:

(June 25, 2015 at 12:22 am)robvalue Wrote: Tonechase: Indeed, I believe the "existence" of all the specific comic book style gods relies almost entirely on indoctrination. If people stopped hammering young, vulnerable minds with mythical gibberish presented as fact, they would reach the age of reason and would be able to make an unbiased, informed decision for themselves. And I think we know what that would be, on the whole. Present someone with developed critical thinking and no presuppositions the bible or the Quran, and (with no coercion) they will most likely reject it as silly stories. So without this oral myth that these books actually have any authority, it wouldn't matter that they exist or what they say any more than Harry Potter does.

People on some level must know this, since they continue to bombard their children as soon as they possibly can in order to make sure this crap sticks. Take away a couple of generations of indoctrination, and I'd give you 100-1 that Yahweh and Allah would fade into obscurity.

FAITH = Forever Actively Indoctrinating The Helpless

Regarding your statement:

"People on some level must know this, since they continue to bombard their children as soon as they possibly can in order to make sure this crap sticks."

That isn't necessarily true.  Parents teach their children things they regard as important.  Like fire burns and stoves can be hot, so they teach their children about that.  Likewise, if the parents believe in hell, they will want to teach their children to avoid it, too.

It is the same motivation in both cases, teaching children to avoid things that are dangerous and bad.

Yeah, you're right. I'm oversimplifying again. I find it baffling that parents think a child needs to know about hell and jesus as a priority, alongside not jumping out of a window or sticking a knife in your eye. But I suppose to some people, they are equally as important. That is scary in of itself.

Can't children be left to just be children... at least until they have a chance of even understanding what is being blasted at them? Parents should think very carefully about what they teach as fact to young children, because they are in essence programming them. This is why I despise indoctrination so much. You're not so much passing on a belief in your god as you are inserting that god directly into their brain.

PS: the idea that god could already be considering sending a child below the age of reason to hell for their actions, so they need to know about the rules, is repulsive.

(June 26, 2015 at 4:02 am)robvalue Wrote:

(June 25, 2015 at 9:55 am)Pyrrho Wrote: Regarding your statement:

"People on some level must know this, since they continue to bombard their children as soon as they possibly can in order to make sure this crap sticks."

That isn't necessarily true.  Parents teach their children things they regard as important.  Like fire burns and stoves can be hot, so they teach their children about that.  Likewise, if the parents believe in hell, they will want to teach their children to avoid it, too.

It is the same motivation in both cases, teaching children to avoid things that are dangerous and bad.

Yeah, you're right. I'm oversimplifying again. I find it baffling that parents think a child needs to know about hell and jesus as a priority, alongside not jumping out of a window or sticking a knife in your eye. But I suppose to some people, they are equally as important. That is scary in of itself.

Can't children be left to just be children... at least until they have a chance of even understanding what is being blasted at them? Parents should think very carefully about what they teach as fact to young children, because they are in essence programming them. This is why I despise indoctrination so much. You're not so much passing on a belief in your god as you are inserting that god directly into their brain.

PS: the idea that god could already be considering sending a child below the age of reason to hell for their actions, so they need to know about the rules, is repulsive.


Spacetime:
One of my friends, a Christian, now dead, had that experience when he was a child in Sunday school.  The teacher introduced the Gospel to him at five years old with a full discussion of SIN and HELL!!!  I agree that THAT is no way to do the Gospel for a child!!  He recovered from that experience but it took him fifty years of living in fear.
Sincerely,
SuperEddy

I'm glad to hear you think that Eddy. I'm very sorry for your friend, very sorry indeed That is horrific and no child deserves it.

By the way, you need to move your part the other side of the [/quote] so that it doesn't continue my quote You can do it with an edit and a cut/paste.

What I remember of my friend, the way he described it, was that they preached to him (at five years old) like they would preach to an adult!! Maybe you have to include sin and hell == just do it gently and without fear. I was never in Sunday school as a child. I was raised as an atheist. I became a Christian at age 27.
SuperEddy

I'm glad to hear it wasn't forced on you, and you made your own decision about it Indoctrination makes me sick.

I dare religious parents to withhold the entirety of their mythology from their children until they are age 7. You answer every question they may have about it until then with, "We'll tell you about it when you are older. It's not suitable for young children." You don't send them to schools which will indoctrinate them, or take them to church.

Are you scared of an unprogrammed 7 year old?

I think you are.

(June 21, 2015 at 4:54 pm)Spacetime Wrote:

(June 21, 2015 at 9:33 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Are you open to being convinced? Or do you just want me to throw out some more clay pigeons for you???

How's this then; we'll address one issue at a time, that way our argument can be linear and pertinent to the issues that I can be convinced on.  This will work if we both agree not to fork the conversation without granting the other's opinion/proofs the merit it would warrant at least in further discussion, while staying on topic.  Not addressing a single issue out of many does not suggest relent on the other person's part.  Surely we can both agree to that.

Let me start with how I would talk to someone in my own Church if we were having fellowship over beers following liturgy (as men often do at my Church);

The bible mentions belief as though it were a choice.  I've found that my Christian identity is wholly wrapped up in trying (desperately) to believe, when I simply have not been convinced.  A positive affirmation of belief "on" Christ Jesus would be a lie in my case... something that very doctrine prohibits.  What I do believe is that I've made tremendous effort in trying to believe, by investigating the faith.  Without deconstructing this paragraph, please address this over all point; If belief is a choice and there is evidence that this belief is convincing and rational, why hasn't this evidence rationally convinced me to believe?  Especially when I'm not ignorant to it... down to its most specific points.

Here... have the "talking stick".  lol

Thank you. And my apologies for not getting back to you sooner.

In some threads, I argue what I believe are basic historical and theological facts. This probably won't be one of those threads, because I don't think you need more facts. Fair enough?

In the OP of your "Hostage to Fear" thread, you wrote:

Quote:As I started to investigate my own religion, I began to cast out doctrines like hell... because you have a very difficult problem with theodicy if you hold to it. I then decided that the evil that occurs now is the most pressing issue if hell is out of the equation. What use is my God if He doesn't intervene? Therefore, God must not be a personal God.

I know the bible is not historically accurate, we can prove the documents are fables. I know we have no evidence for the suspension of physical laws to allow for the possibility of miracles. I know human biology doesn't allow for something like a virgin birth.

Your issues include:

The problem of evil.
The Bible is a collection of fables.
Supernatural miracles cannot occur.
Biology precludes virgin births and resurrections.

It sounds like you have everything figured out...there's not much I can say that you'll actually hear at this point. You're caught up in the white-hot passion of the newly converted (it goes both ways), so who am I to throw water onto the fire that's burning inside you? It could take years before it dies down to nothing but ashes. Only then...maybe...will you realize that the heart(h) has grown cold.

You also ask me not to deconstruct the paragraph above and to address the overall point. Okay, I just need an honest self-assessment:...and we can do this by PM if you prefer because there is going to be a LOT of static from other posters.

I gather from what you've written in your posts that you were striving mightily to please others (parents? spouse? other church members? the ideal you had of being a "good" parent?), but can you honestly say that you ever WANTED to be a follower of Christ?

Yes or no? Why or why not?