Same reasons Christians do?
They're insecure and they need an extra life!

That's why religios are prepared to twist and contort every aspect of the bible to suit their lifestyle except for the "not negotiable" afterlife bit.
Because without that, there's nothing in it for them. It's all about me! ..........Me Me Me! It's just the selfish ape instincts at work, unfortunately.

I mean, I demonstrated that the Quran verses 25:53 and 33:4 are factually incorrect and yet I've seen no attempt at a refutation. Not even the old metaphor excuse. What more evidence does this person need that the Quran is man made? It's not even like I'm going down the clichéd route of citing where the Quran says that the sun sets in a pool of muddy water. The Quran says fresh and salt water don't mix and say that humans can only have one heart within their body both of which are obviously wrong! People are born with more than one heart and fresh and salt water do mix!

(July 12, 2015 at 6:54 pm)huss88ein Wrote:

(July 12, 2015 at 6:42 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote: Nope, it don't work that way down my neck of the woods me old mucker. You state that Islam is the real deal and admit to not being knowledgeable in all other holy texts and then ask me to say why Islam is wrong?

I don't believe in any of these books, you don't believe in any of them apart from the Quran (without having read them all) and ask me to prove why your chosen book is wrong? You must see the utter hypocrisy in this line of thought surely?

Well I never told you that I don't believe in any of them beside quran we muslims believe that the bible is the word of god among other books but has been manipulated by man.

To be blunt, nobody cares what you believe.

(July 12, 2015 at 6:54 pm)huss88ein Wrote: For that proving me wrong statement it goes both way I try to prove u wrong and u try to prove me wrong that's how a debate works .
In the beginning of this debate I gave multiple signs that quran is the word of god and we discussed them among us in a most civilized way.
And I asked in return to show me mistakes in quran as the debate went on.
For me that how discussions work we try to prove the opposite to be wrong so if you're taking this as that I am saying I have no proof then no I did mention mutiple verses in favor of islam being the true relegion.

You're citing your own religion to prove why your religion is correct. That's a fallacy called circular reasoning and means your entire argument is rendered pointless straight from the get go. Sorry!

(July 12, 2015 at 6:54 pm)huss88ein Wrote: If you want to give me somthing against it that will solidify your point of view if not it is also acceptable.

Your lack of evidence (as well as fallacious reasoning) to give weight to your assertions is the only 'evidence' I need to be able reject your argument.

(July 11, 2015 at 7:43 pm)huss88ein Wrote: There are many scintific facts in quran that would proof to any one that quran is the word of god and god exists one .
one of them is the embryology of humans who drove many doctors to believe that quran is indeed the word of god.
Ready to answer any questions

(July 13, 2015 at 7:34 am)robvalue Wrote: Indeed.

He may well be an otherwise intelligent and rational person, but this is just preaching and not a discussion.

We reject your religion for the same reasons you reject all the others. Fantastical claims with woefully little evidence to back them up. Retrofitting an ancient document to scientific findings doesn't prove anything. If you want to see something in the text badly enough, you'll see it.

And anyway, why would you worship an immoral monster like Allah who wants to torture people simply for refusing to submit to him?

Well among the others I think you are the most rational one and built your beliefs on a solid foundation.
Saying that I am preaching well I don't even know however preaching from my point of view would be like saying
"No you're wrong you will all go to hell for your beliefs. ......." well I never said that I don't even believe that.
Putting that aside you're giving another concept and a very amazing question which I asked myself several times before being convinced in islam snd that question is why god is so cruel or in other words why is god sadistic.
I found the answer to that by searching in the word mithaque which means promise as that when god created us he took sn owth from all humans to worship him and then we forgot that promise for the sake of this test we are living.
You csn argue an tell me that I dont remember that is where the profits come.
Ok as for why did he created us if he doesn't want us to suffer well the answer is that our creation is a better creation and god wanted to make a better creation that simple.
And we are the ones who wanted to become human in the first place god gave us a choice and we will all remember that in the afterlife.

If you tell me at this point that you don't believe in god in the first place I'll tell that wasnt your question your question was why do I BELIEVE IN CRUEL GOD

---

(July 13, 2015 at 8:04 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: I mean, I demonstrated that the Quran verses 25:53 and 33:4 are factually incorrect and yet I've seen no attempt at a refutation. Not even the old metaphor excuse. What more evidence does this person need that the Quran is man made? It's not even like I'm going down the clichéd route of citing where the Quran says that the sun sets in a pool of muddy water. The Quran says fresh and salt water don't mix and say that humans can only have one heart within their body both of which are obviously wrong! People are born with more than one heart and fresh and salt water do mix!

Imam Fakhr-ud-Deen Ar-Razi states,

When Zul-Qarnain reached the furthest west and no populated land was left, he found the sun as if it sets in a dark spring, but it is not in reality. The same when sea traveler sees the sun as if it sets in the sea if he cannot see the shore while in reality it sets behind the sea. (Ar-Razi, At-Tafsir-ul-Kabir, Volume 21, page 166)
As for estuarine thats the barrier quran has mentioned it is pount for me not against me. A known fact between rivers and seas

Here is your answer

Quote:If a man, says Epictetus, objects to what is manifestly clear, it is not easy to find an argument against him, whereby one shall change his mind. And this is not because of his power, nor because of the weakness of him that is instructing him; but, when a man, worsted in argument, becomes hardened like a stone, how can one reason with him any more?

Now there are two ways in which a man may be thus hardened: one when his reasoning faculty is petrified, and the other when his moral sense is petrified, and he sets himself deliberately not to assent to manifest arguments, and not to abandon what conflicts with them. Now most of us fear the deadening of the body and would take all possible means to avoid such a calamity, yet we take no heed of the deadening of the mind and the spirit. When the mind itself is in such a state that a man can follow nothing and understand nothing, we do indeed think that he is in a bad condition; yet, if a man's sense of shame and self-respect is deadened, we even go so far as to call him 'a strong man'.

Do you comprehend that you are awake?

'No,' he says, 'no more than I comprehend it, when I seem to be awake in my dreams.'

Is there no difference then between the one sort of impression and the other?

'None.'

Can I argue with him any longer? What fire or sword, I say, am I to bring to bear on him, to prove that his mind is deadened? He has sensation and pretends that he has not; he is worse than the dead. One man does not see the battle; he is ill off. This other sees it but stirs not, nor advances; his state is still more wretched. His sense of shame and self-respect is cut out of him, and his reasoning faculty, though not cut away, is brutalized. Am I to call this 'strength'? Heaven forbid, unless I call it 'strength' in those who sin against nature, that makes them do and say in public whatever occurs to their fancy.

The Quran does not say "only in this specific example do fresh water and salt water not mix". The verse 25:53 claims that fresh and salt water never mix. Rain is fresh water, because the salt is removed from the water as it evaporates, so when it rains over an ocean/sea what do you think happens? Does the rain water mix with the salt water or not? Are you going to deny the water cycle simply to defend the Quran? Go and get a cup of non-salt water and mix it with a cup of salty water and see what happens.

Notice it does not mention your apparent example, therefore we must assume the author of the Quran did not know fresh and salt water can mix:
Quran 25:53
It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Secondly, you still haven't explained away Quran 33:4 which says humans can only have one heart within their body even though people have been born with more than one heart.

Man with two hearts survives double heart attack yet Quran 33:4 says: "Allah has not made for any man two hearts in his (one) body: nor has He made your wives whom ye divorce by Zihar your mothers: nor has He made your adopted sons your sons. Such is (only) your (manner of) speech by your mouths. But Allah tells (you) the Truth, and He shows the (right) Way."

Please explain this apparent contradiction with reality.

Islam is real *something* alright.

And the arguments I read here just convince me of that more firmly.

(July 13, 2015 at 3:55 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: The Quran does not say "only in this specific example do fresh water and salt water not mix". The verse 25:53 claims that fresh and salt water never mix. Rain is fresh water, because the salt is removed from the water as it evaporates, so when it rains over an ocean/sea what do you think happens? Does the rain water mix with the salt water or not? Are you going to deny the water cycle simply to defend the Quran? Go and get a cup of non-salt water and mix it with a cup of salty water and see what happens.

Notice it does not mention your apparent example, therefore we must assume the author of the Quran did not know fresh and salt water can mix:
Quran 25:53
It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Secondly, you still haven't explained away Quran 33:4 which says humans can only have one heart within their body even though people have been born with more than one heart.

Man with two hearts survives double heart attack yet Quran 33:4 says: "Allah has not made for any man two hearts in his (one) body: nor has He made your wives whom ye divorce by Zihar your mothers: nor has He made your adopted sons your sons. Such is (only) your (manner of) speech by your mouths. But Allah tells (you) the Truth, and He shows the (right) Way."

Please explain this apparent contradiction with reality.

Ok for the first verse it says in Arabic bahrain that means two seas in arabic snd bahr in arabic means a large place with water in it not two bodies as you claimed.
For the second verse about hearts you stated you should know that in arabic qualb or fouad means heart an mind in the same moment so it should be referred to as it was in the context.
According to Ibn katheer tafsir of quran

This verse was meant for a man in koraish who was named zo alqualbain which means the man with two hearts who claimed that he had two minds not hearts cause that what the man claimed each mind as an entity of its own giving him much more knowledge than the others.
So you can't just translate quran to english without knowing the explanation of these words, and in this hadeeth you will see that clearly

 came to the messenger of Allah and he said: "You have come to ask about righteousness ?" . I said:" Yes." He said: "Consult your heart. Righteousness is that about which the soul feels tranquil and the heart feels tranquil, and wrongdoing is that which wavers in the soul and moves to and from in the breast even though people again and again have given you their legal opinion [in its favor]."

a good hadith transmetted from the Musnads of the two Imams, Ahmed bin Hanbal and Al-Darimi, with a good chain of authorities.

(July 13, 2015 at 3:55 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: The Quran does not say "only in this specific example do fresh water and salt water not mix". The verse 25:53 claims that fresh and salt water never mix. Rain is fresh water, because the salt is removed from the water as it evaporates, so when it rains over an ocean/sea what do you think happens? Does the rain water mix with the salt water or not? Are you going to deny the water cycle simply to defend the Quran? Go and get a cup of non-salt water and mix it with a cup of salty water and see what happens.

Notice it does not mention your apparent example, therefore we must assume the author of the Quran did not know fresh and salt water can mix:
Quran 25:53
It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Secondly, you still haven't explained away Quran 33:4 which says humans can only have one heart within their body even though people have been born with more than one heart.

Man with two hearts survives double heart attack yet Quran 33:4 says: "Allah has not made for any man two hearts in his (one) body: nor has He made your wives whom ye divorce by Zihar your mothers: nor has He made your adopted sons your sons. Such is (only) your (manner of) speech by your mouths. But Allah tells (you) the Truth, and He shows the (right) Way."

Please explain this apparent contradiction with reality.

Ok for the first verse it says in Arabic bahrain that means two seas in arabic snd bahr in arabic means a large place with water in it not two bodies as you claimed.
For the second verse about hearts you stated you should know that in arabic qualb or fouad means heart an mind in the same moment so it should be referred to as it was in the context.
According to Ibn katheer tafsir of quran

This verse was meant for a man in koraish who was named zo alqualbain which means the man with two hearts who claimed that he had two minds not hearts cause that what the man claimed each mind as an entity of its own giving him much more knowledge than the others.
So you can't just translate quran to english without knowing the explanation of these words,

(July 13, 2015 at 3:55 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: The Quran does not say "only in this specific example do fresh water and salt water not mix". The verse 25:53 claims that fresh and salt water never mix. Rain is fresh water, because the salt is removed from the water as it evaporates, so when it rains over an ocean/sea what do you think happens? Does the rain water mix with the salt water or not? Are you going to deny the water cycle simply to defend the Quran? Go and get a cup of non-salt water and mix it with a cup of salty water and see what happens.

Notice it does not mention your apparent example, therefore we must assume the author of the Quran did not know fresh and salt water can mix:
Quran 25:53
It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Secondly, you still haven't explained away Quran 33:4 which says humans can only have one heart within their body even though people have been born with more than one heart.

Man with two hearts survives double heart attack yet Quran 33:4 says: "Allah has not made for any man two hearts in his (one) body: nor has He made your wives whom ye divorce by Zihar your mothers: nor has He made your adopted sons your sons. Such is (only) your (manner of) speech by your mouths. But Allah tells (you) the Truth, and He shows the (right) Way."

Please explain this apparent contradiction with reality.

Ok for the first verse it says in Arabic bahrain that means two seas in arabic snd bahr in arabic means a large place with water in it not two bodies as you claimed.
For the second verse about hearts you stated you should know that in arabic qualb or fouad means heart an mind in the same moment so it should be referred to as it was in the context.
According to Ibn katheer tafsir of quran

This verse was meant for a man in koraish who was named zo alqualbain which means the man with two hearts who claimed that he had two minds not hearts cause that what the man claimed each mind as an entity of its own giving him much more knowledge than the others.
So you can't just translate quran to english without knowing the explanation of these words, and this hadeeth shows it clearly

 from wabsa bin mouabad that hecame to the messenger of Allah and he said: "You have come to ask about righteousness ?" . I said:" Yes." He said: "Consult your heart. Righteousness is that about which the soul feels tranquil and the heart feels tranquil, and wrongdoing is that which wavers in the soul and moves to and from in the breast even though people again and again have given you their legal opinion [in its favor]."

a good hadith transmetted from the Musnads of the two Imams, Ahmed bin Hanbal and Al-Darimi, with a good chain of authorities.
So heart here means mind not heart literally.

Quote:He may well be an otherwise intelligent and rational person

Not very fucking likely.