(July 16, 2015 at 10:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Thank you. And my apologies for not getting back to you sooner.

In some threads, I argue what I believe are basic historical and theological facts. This probably won't be one of those threads, because I don't think you need more facts. Fair enough?

In the OP of your "Hostage to Fear" thread, you wrote:

see above

Your issues include:

The problem of evil.
The Bible is a collection of fables.
Supernatural miracles cannot occur.
Biology precludes virgin births and resurrections.

It sounds like you have everything figured out...there's not much I can say that you'll actually hear at this point. You're caught up in the white-hot passion of the newly converted (it goes both ways), so who am I to throw water onto the fire that's burning inside you? It could take years before it dies down to nothing but ashes. Only then...maybe...will you realize that the heart(h) has grown cold.

You also ask me not to deconstruct the paragraph above and to address the overall point. Okay, I just need an honest self-assessment:...and we can do this by PM if you prefer because there is going to be a LOT of static from other posters.

I gather from what you've written in your posts that you were striving mightily to please others (parents? spouse? other church members? the ideal you had of being a "good" parent?), but can you honestly say that you ever WANTED to be a follower of Christ?

Yes or no? Why or why not?

I have a whole long paragraph copy/pasted onto a notepad file referencing your post here, but please... let's get back to the original inquiry and not answer questions with questions. You agreed to answer this... though today, you've not provided an answer...

I'll pose it here again...

The bible mentions belief as though it were a choice. I've found that my Christian identity is wholly wrapped up in trying (desperately) to believe, when I simply have not been convinced. A positive affirmation of belief "on" Christ Jesus would be a lie in my case... something that very doctrine prohibits. What I do believe is that I've made tremendous effort in trying to believe, by investigating the faith. Without deconstructing this paragraph, please address this over all point; If belief is a choice and there is evidence that this belief is convincing and rational, why hasn't this evidence rationally convinced me to believe? Especially when I'm not ignorant to it... down to its most specific points.

(July 16, 2015 at 10:18 pm)Spacetime Wrote:

(July 16, 2015 at 10:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Thank you. And my apologies for not getting back to you sooner.

In some threads, I argue what I believe are basic historical and theological facts. This probably won't be one of those threads, because I don't think you need more facts. Fair enough?

In the OP of your "Hostage to Fear" thread, you wrote:

see above

Your issues include:

The problem of evil.
The Bible is a collection of fables.
Supernatural miracles cannot occur.
Biology precludes virgin births and resurrections.

It sounds like you have everything figured out...there's not much I can say that you'll actually hear at this point. You're caught up in the white-hot passion of the newly converted (it goes both ways), so who am I to throw water onto the fire that's burning inside you? It could take years before it dies down to nothing but ashes. Only then...maybe...will you realize that the heart(h) has grown cold.

You also ask me not to deconstruct the paragraph above and to address the overall point. Okay, I just need an honest self-assessment:...and we can do this by PM if you prefer because there is going to be a LOT of static from other posters.

I gather from what you've written in your posts that you were striving mightily to please others (parents? spouse? other church members? the ideal you had of being a "good" parent?), but can you honestly say that you ever WANTED to be a follower of Christ?

Yes or no? Why or why not?

I have a whole long paragraph copy/pasted onto a notepad file referencing your post here, but please... let's get back to the original inquiry and not answer questions with questions.  You agreed to answer this... though today, you've not provided an answer...

I'll pose it here again...

The bible mentions belief as though it were a choice.  I've found that my Christian identity is wholly wrapped up in trying (desperately) to believe, when I simply have not been convinced.  A positive affirmation of belief "on" Christ Jesus would be a lie in my case... something that very doctrine prohibits.  What I do believe is that I've made tremendous effort in trying to believe, by investigating the faith.  Without deconstructing this paragraph, please address this over all point; If belief is a choice [emphasis added] and there is evidence that this belief is convincing and rational, why hasn't this evidence rationally convinced me to believe?  Especially when I'm not ignorant to it... down to its most specific points.

ST-

I'm sorry if you feel my answer was inadequate. I'll try again.

I agree that belief is a choice, and choosing is an act of the will - not a matter of the intellect or the emotions. This is why I think it is fair to begin by asking: Did or do you even want to be a follower of Christ?

I know you were trying to please various people, but were you really willing to follow him?

I'm not accusing...I'm trying to understand your experience.

Belief is a choice? WHAT

ok, Randy, start believing in the tooth fairy as of right now -_-

(July 16, 2015 at 10:40 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: I'm sorry if you feel my answer was inadequate. I'll try again.

I agree that belief is a choice, and choosing is an act of the will - not a matter of the intellect or the emotions. This is why I think it is fair to begin by asking: Did or do you even want to be a follower of Christ?

I know you were trying to please various people, but were you really willing to follow him?

I'm not accusing...I'm trying to understand your experience.

I can't answer for the OP but I wanted to provide my own experience.

All my life, I easily believed in a higher power. Even when I went through periods of doubt, I still thought that there must be something bigger than humanity. It wasn't until my early thirties that I could be called a Christian. Until that point, I had read a lot about other religions looking for one answer. They couldn't all be right, I thought. Around the age of thirty, I met a very sweet, gentle woman who seemed to be happy most of the time. I thought, I want that kind of happiness so I 'realized' that Christianity was 'true'. In a very emotional moment, I invited Jesus into my life and begged for forgiveness of my sins. Up until that point, I was a happy but not content person. After that conversion, the opposite happened. I was content and had deep moments where I thought I felt the presence of god but I can't say that I had the same level of happiness that I had as a non Christian.

Damn it, I thought, if I am going to be a Christian, I am not going to be lukewarm so I began reading both the bible and what other denominations believed. It seemed to me that under the umbrella of Christianity there were many different religions. I didn't know which church was best but started attending a very small Independent Baptist Church in Iowa. I had no idea that the church was fundamentalist but I also began reading anything online about how Christian wives should act. My mother had been married many times so I didn't want that to happen to me. Also, I wanted my children to have the stability that I did not have as a kid. So, I fell into a lot of fundamentalist thinking and behaviors: long dresses, not cutting my hair, submission and homeschooling. It was terrible and I was miserable.

I will finish this in another post because it is too long

You got me all revved up!
This better end in a bedroom scene!

I stopped going to that church and grew interested in Catholicism. RC gets a lot of bad press but compared to fundamentalist Baptist, it is liberal. I liked that the RC church said that nonbelievers stand a chance of going to heaven. The Catholic concept of moral and venial sin made sense to me. We started attending a Catholic Church but there was simply too many questions that I couldn't stop asking.

One day, my oldest son started an online relationship with a girl. She came to stay in our house for a few days so we could meet her. She seemed very immature and spoiled but I assumed the romance would blow over. When my 19 year old son told me his girlfriend was pregnant and that they wanted to get married, I was disappointed and worried. Try as I might, I could not help comparing my reaction to my son doing something I considered wrong with how bible god reacts when people do wrong. Not only did I not expect or want my son to apologize but I had no desire for him to suffer much less for him to be tortured. His wife makes him happy and that is good enough for me. The realization that I was a better parent than my god sounded blasphemous to me but I couldn't stop myself from judging god.

On the floor I would lay on my face and beg god to help me retain my faith. Nothing. When I finally called myself an atheist, I felt relief. I had no control over my lack of beliefs or the series of questions that I could no longer hold at bay.

Belief is not a choice. Some people seem inclined to believe in something. Maybe they need easy answers to complex problems. I don't think that makes them stupid. They are probably reacting to a need that I simply don't have anymore. I sort of wonder if religion wasn't my way of dealing with an abusive childhood. Once my mom died, I didn't need faith any longer so my brain let me know that I could move beyond faith(hopefully that my sense). The pregnancy of my son's girlfriend was just the catalyst that got the ball rolling for me to admit that I no longer needed religion

(July 17, 2015 at 7:50 am)ignoramus Wrote: You got me all revved up!
This better end in a bedroom scene!

Well, I finally admitted to my husband that I am attracted to women as well as men. It was something that embarrassed me for years. Does that count? I've never acted on that attraction because I remained ashamed of it until I became an atheist in my forties.

Nope: I'm very sad to hear the pain it caused you But I'm happy atheism let's you feel comfortable with who you are Religion sucks!

Belief is not a choice. If you think you can choose to believe things, there's something seriously wrong with you.

You can choose to tell people you believe whatever you want though. If you think that fools God, you think less of him than I do.

(July 16, 2015 at 10:40 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: ST-

I'm sorry if you feel my answer was inadequate. I'll try again.

I agree that belief is a choice, and choosing is an act of the will - not a matter of the intellect or the emotions. This is why I think it is fair to begin by asking: Did or do you even want to be a follower of Christ?

I know you were trying to please various people, but were you really willing to follow him?

I'm not accusing...I'm trying to understand your experience.

First, if you believe I'm being condescending in this post... please hold out for the end. My intentions were never to "please various people"... they were to save my wife and children from hell. I never sought to please anyone except this god of Holy Scripture. ...period.

I don't think you can agree with me on a point I have not made. I never made the point that belief is a choice. On the contrary, I've made my opinion of the opposite very clear.

Acting as though I believe is contrary to what the values of your faith teach. Lying is a sin, no matter your target. I was lying to myself when I said, "I believe in Christ Jesus". I acted as though I really thought I believed for many years. I simply quit lying, to 1) avoid sin in my quest for theosis 2) live an authentic human experience.

I wanted to believe in Christ (as portrayed in Holy Scripture) more than I wanted my own life, if it could be sacrificed so that my children would have the faith I don't ... for their salvation. I wanted my wife and my kids to reach heaven... and knowingly lied to them about what I "believed" for that reason. I deceived my family to meet the demands of a god. At the end of every day, there was something wholly wrong with that... if my god be "good" and "truth".

As an anti-Calvinist, I could not just attribute my lack of faith to determinism. A deep study of theodicy (through Scripture, history, and authoritative ancillary texts) answered all the questions I needed answers to.

The honest and exercised answer is, yes, I was willing to follow Christ to the bitter end. And I appreciate you trying to understand my experiences ... throw me in the fire for being wrong, but I take it you're younger than most apologists and have a decent liberal education... your honest empathy gives you away.