(July 19, 2015 at 10:34 am)Randy Carson Wrote: I know that you are quite eager to absolve yourself from any personal responsibility for your sins, but your desire to blame God simply won't fly.

Quote:It is not logically possible to have free will and no possibility of moral evil.

(July 19, 2015 at 12:02 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 11:41 am)KUSA Wrote: Jesus did not pay the price for our sins. The penalty for sin is to burn for eternity in hell. If Jesus wanted to pay the price then his ass would be in hell for eternity.

Incorrect. Jesus didn't simply take our place in hell; he paid a price that we were unable to pay so that we do not have to go to hell for eternity.

Quote:Bad example. A window? Let's put this into greater perspective. Let's say a vile person breaks in your house and rapes and kills your family.

Then someone steps in and pays the price for the crime. For the sake of argument let's say the person either pays for it monetarily or chooses to take the vile person's place in jail.

Would that be a just thing? Would you feel that justice was served? I mean it really doesn't matter who gets punished as long as someone does. Right?

I eagerly await your reply.

In our court system, part of the justice is punishment of the person who did something wrong. A murderer may be forgiven by God for his sins and go to heaven even though he is executed by lethal injection by the state which convicted him of the crime.

Now, the punishment for sin is death, but Jesus did not merely save us from punishment. He made it possible for those who have faith to be completely made new and restored to a right relationship with God. Therefore, God does not look at us as sinners who got away with something but as new creations in Christ.

Remember, the one who owns the window is God, and He alone determines what satisfies His own view of justice.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:54 am)Neimenovic Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 11:05 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Well, when you finally make up your mind, let me know.

You're just using your own indecision as a mean of avoiding the questions I will rain down on you once you have finally decided what it is that you believe.

Make up my mind?

My mind is made up. I think there was a person or multiple people who the jesus character was based on. But nothing like the biblical jesus. Definitely not your white, blue eyed pretty boy.

What question, Randy?

(July 19, 2015 at 12:17 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 11:54 am)Neimenovic Wrote: Make up my mind?

My mind is made up. I think there was a person or multiple people who the jesus character was based on. But nothing like the biblical jesus. Definitely not your white, blue eyed pretty boy.

What question, Randy?

Was Jesus crucified by Pontius Pilate?

(July 19, 2015 at 11:56 am)Rhythm Wrote: If that's the truth, that a scapegoating god will punish me if I don't accept it's offering?  Yes, Randy, it will.  Have I been unclear?  If your goal is to bring people to christ, confronted with a person like myself who has a non-negotiable position on vicarious redemption...then yes, you should shut your mouth about vicarious redemption...or simply accept that your actions are driving them further and further from where you think they should be.  I know that the concept of responsibility and ownership is difficult for you, just look at how you hope to shirk your own justly deserved fate...but for some of us, it's important to own up to what one has wrought, be that in this life or the next.  Again, either you have a response or you don't...but there's very little sense in quoting me if you don't -actually- intend to respond to me.

I'll repeat in case you missed it....

If this crucifixion business were true, if the things that -you- are claiming are true, I couldn't..... in good conscience..... be a christian.

Wheres your brilliant argument?  I checked the list in your other thread.....seems to be missing there as well.

(July 19, 2015 at 12:06 pm)Nope Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 10:34 am)Randy Carson Wrote: I know that you are quite eager to absolve yourself from any personal responsibility for your sins, but your desire to blame God simply won't fly.

Again, I am an atheist. I do not believe in your god or in the concept of sin

Quote:

Quote:It is not logically possible to have free will and no possibility of moral evil.

Your god is not all powerful. Okay, I understand now.

(July 19, 2015 at 12:13 pm)Nope Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 12:02 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Incorrect. Jesus didn't simply take our place in hell; he paid a price that we were unable to pay so that we do not have to go to hell for eternity.


In our court system, part of the justice is punishment of the person who did something wrong. A murderer may be forgiven by God for his sins and go to heaven even though he is executed by lethal injection by the state which convicted him of the crime.

Now, the punishment for sin is death, but Jesus did not merely save us from punishment. He made it possible for those who have faith to be completely made new and restored to a right relationship with God. Therefore, God does not look at us as sinners who got away with something but as new creations in Christ.

Remember, the one who owns the window is God, and He alone determines what satisfies His own view of justice.

I noticed that you stuck with the window example and didn't acknowledge the worse scenario that Kusa used. If a man breaks into a house and rapes and kills everyone it would be offensive if he was set free because someone else volunteered to pay the criminal's due. If god owns the window, are you saying that god owns the family so the innocent husband's feelings don't matter?

(July 19, 2015 at 12:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Inability to do contradictory things is not evidence of impotence.