What is with refusing to admit slavery is wrong?

[Redbeard The Pink]

Any way you slice it, modern wage slavery in modern countries is just not the same level of exploitation as globally institutionalized ass-beating slavery. The kind of slavery the Bible condones is illegal in virtually all countries and is practiced on nowhere near the proportional scale that it used to be. Modern wage slavery is also rife with suffering and should probably also be addressed, but it's a sign that we still have hurdles, not a sign that we need to revert back to Bronze Age labor systems.

[robvalue]

If you believe God designed this shit, then God decided "we need slavery". With all this power, you'd think he could find a more humane alternative. Like stuff we need just appearing out of nowhere, etc.

But he apparently likes the slavery.

[Drich]

If all slavery is wrong we are all in trouble, because modern life would not be possible if not for active modern slaves.

And we are. Some more than others. Looking at Mc Donalds or Walmart here. Or the ones that have to do two or three jobs to even survive. You on the other hand seem to be comfortably farting from your chair and to add insult to injury.

But I get it. Your particular brand of christianity is all about scripture. Words, empty word at that and no empathy for others, since, well, you can always find a bible verse to justify inhumane treatment of others. The great reward is waiting once they snuff it, am I right?

I'm not talking about any retail or food service Jobs, because they are all subject to federal minimum wage requirements. I'm talking about picking the produce you eat every day (organic or not) These jobs are not subject to federal minimum wage requirement nor do child labor law prevent children work a 12 hour shift in a field. This is how you specifically benfit from modern day slavery that goes on in this country. Not to mention the electronics, the chemicals, textiles, and all the other core products that make up modern life are also sourced from slave labor.

Why can't I say these practices are wrong? Because without them those people would starve. They wait months and sometimes years to get their families into a corperate subsidized housing to they can eat and not be homeless. They have to work at little pay because if they got what everyone in the west considers a fair wage, the products made from their core materials would be too expensive for us to buy, meaning they could not sell these products anymore. which means they would starve.

Chattle slavery is bad. this is what most of you have limited in your minds as to what All slavery is. However this is a link to the state department's identification of the types of slavery.
http://www.state.gov/j/tip/what/

In essence a slave is one who is completely dependant on another for some if not all of the basics of life and in this case is under contract to trade work for those basics.

There are many types of slavery All have the potential of being very bad (if unregulated, which is where most of it is now because people like you will not accept their role in modern slavery) but at the same time some can be benficial. in that it can provide for those who can not other wise provide for themselves.

I don't know if you guys are aware but out side of this country and a handful of others, the goverments of the rest of the world can not provide for the poor as we do. the rest of the world is on a very strict Don't work, don't eat policy. It is the consumer nature of the nations like the US and EU that provide the 'work' for the countries who can not otherwise provide for their people.

This definition of Slavery is how the ancient world worked from thousands of years. Those without worked for those who had in exchange for things, (even currency, land, to even buy their way into a family at times, but more often than not it was for the basics.) Yes Chattle slavery was apart of that equasion, but again it was not the only version of slavery being practiced, and it still had rules and regulations governing it.

Why can't I say all slavery is bad? Because we ourselves are called to be slaves under God. Not chattle, but as one working towards a goal to become apart of His family. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Because in doing so God then becomes completely responsible for my well being. He takes that pressure of day to day life off, and then breaks it all down to very simple tasks. At the end of which I will be considered one of His own that get to share in the fullness of His riches and glory.

[John V]

Why do religionists refuse to condemn slavery?

Plenty of "religionists" do condemn slavery.

I hate arguments like "it was normal back then", "everyone else was doing it" or "so-and-so put rules in place to make sure slaves were well treated". Why can't they just admit the author(s) of their religious text(s) were influenced by moral relativism?

Jesus noted that OT law on divorce was not an ideal, but rather a practical concession. Why can't Christians therefore argue the same regarding slavery?

Matt 19
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”

4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a] them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”

8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

[Redbeard The Pink]

Why do religionists refuse to condemn slavery?

Plenty of "religionists" do condemn slavery.

I hate arguments like "it was normal back then", "everyone else was doing it" or "so-and-so put rules in place to make sure slaves were well treated". Why can't they just admit the author(s) of their religious text(s) were influenced by moral relativism?

Jesus noted that OT law on divorce was not an ideal, but rather a practical concession. Why can't Christians therefore argue the same regarding slavery?

Matt 19
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”

4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a] them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’  5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?  6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”

8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.  9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

Nice argument...it'd be a shame if something were to...HAPPEN to it...

Sooo...was the hardness of their hearts also the reason Gaud drew the line at knocking out eyes and teeth? You realize they could beat their slaves pretty much to death and get away with it as long as it took a day or two for them to die, right? And if he legalized divorce and slave-beating because it was a "practical concession," why didn't he give practical concessions for non-violent activities that occur between consenting, naked adults? Why do those people get killed with rocks?

It almost seems as if the biblical laws were written by a bunch of intensely patriarchal men who owned slaves...hmmm...

[Drich]

Ok. Two things. While I expect we all know more or less what you'd say, I have yet to see you adequately defend the assertion that we all benefit from modern slavery, or how that would be in any way acceptable even if it is demonstrably true (which it may or may not be, honestly). Second, this right here:

Food, do you eat it? Do you eat anything besides processed food? Do you eat fruits or vegtables? Do you only eat what you grow? If you eat fruits or vegtables know they are hand picked. why? Because they are not robust enough to be machine picked. If you did not pay 10 to 20 dollars for a head of lettuce or 9 dollars for an apple then you are benfiting from people being paid sometimes 1/2 if not less of the federal minimum wage. The child labor laws are also loosened for your produce. If you are eating out of season fruit or vegtables that means it came from south/central America where everything including chattle slavery is practiced. We are all guilty of this. Why? because we eat, and we demand that our food be affordable. Even if you are a grow your own food douche, know the society you live in can not survive without cheap produce. take that away, and you will be living in a Mad Max type of world.

is your argument from consequence fallacy. Your assertion is that if we admit slavery is immoral, the consequences are that we will be hypocrites (which is how you spell that, by the way), therefore we should not admit slavery is wrong. Your reasoning is fallacious, the reasons behind your reasoning are fallacious, and the tie you wore to church yesterday is fallacious.

Regardless of how much modern society (myself included) may or may not rely on modern forms of slavery, humans should still be working to eradicate all forms of slavery from the globe because slavery is wrong. The fact that a bunch of people are still doing it doesn't make it ok.

If slavery goes away, all of it. People by the millions if not billions will starve and die. Slaves currently work for their keep. If everyone gets a 'fair share' then the money will be seriously devalued and will become meaningless which means their product prices will go up, which will inturn drive out prices up ultimately meaning those in our lower to middle classes will not be able to afford their products which means a cut in demand leading to a cut in production.

We all may be equal on one level or another, but that does not entitle anyone to an equal share. we are all made or broken by the opportunities life affords us. it's great to want to provide everyone with the same opportunities, but in the end if everyone had the same skills and opportunities then it would be no different in this part of the world as in that (they would drag us down/we would not pull them up)

The only way society will not need slavery is more advanced robotics on a mass scale, or a mass plague. and even then if we are still living in a structured society someone will have to grow our food, for very little to no money if the rest of us are expected to buy it.

Again, from the beginning of society to now, we have yet to come up with a system that supports city life that does not include slavery on one level or another, until the last few generations.. and even then all you d-bags have done is rename or narrow down the definition of the word slave to only mean the type of slavery we as a race of people don't really need.

If you all would simply accept slavery and your part in it you could the unfair aspects of it. It s not all unfair.

[Drich]

Any way you slice it, modern wage slavery in modern countries is just not the same level of exploitation as globally institutionalized ass-beating slavery. The kind of slavery the Bible condones is illegal in virtually all countries and is practiced on nowhere near the proportional scale that it used to be. Modern wage slavery is also rife with suffering and should probably also be addressed, but it's a sign that we still have hurdles, not a sign that we need to revert back to Bronze Age labor systems.

Argument from ignorance.

Modern slavery can be far worse than anything allowed by the bible/OT Judaism. That's the point I'm making, because it is unregulated, and because no one checks behind closed doors nothing stops modern slavery from being far worse than anything permitted in the bible.

[John V]

Nice argument...it'd be a shame if something were to...HAPPEN to it...

Sooo...was the hardness of their hearts also the reason Gaud drew the line at knocking out eyes and teeth? You realize they could beat their slaves pretty much to death and get away with it as long as it took a day or two for them to die, right? And if he legalized divorce and slave-beating because it was a "practical concession," why didn't he give practical concessions for non-violent activities that occur between consenting, naked adults? Why do those people get killed with rocks?

It almost seems as if the biblical laws were written by a bunch of intensely patriarchal men who owned slaves...hmmm...

Seems unlikely to me that such people acting on their own would give their slaves every seventh day off.

[John V]

An OT verse on slavery that atheists generally don't bring up:

Ex 21
16 He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.

So, the Bible condemns slavery as it was practiced in America, as slaves here were generally kidnapped in Africa and sold. OT slaves were generally captured during war. God sent Israel against other nations in judgment of them, and death and slavery were their punishments. The Bible finds slavery to be a bad state to be in, and God would use other nations in judgment of Israel when it sinned severely, e.g. the Babylonian captivity.

[Spooky]

Why do religionists refuse to condemn slavery? I hate arguments like "it was normal back then", "everyone else was doing it" or "so-and-so put rules in place to make sure slaves were well treated". Why can't they just admit the author(s) of their religious text(s) were influenced by moral relativism? Why is it so hard for so many people to say that slavery is wrong?

Because once you start believing in an invisible sky daddy, everything else becomes much much easier. :/