What is with refusing to admit slavery is wrong?

[CapnAwesome]

I don't think that morality has changed at all. Slavery was immoral in the past because it caused pain and suffering to people. Slavery is immoral today because it causes pain and suffering to people. It's just that our understanding of it has advanced.

I also think that if you are a moral relativist you have to admit that Christianity was morally advanced for the time.

Oh, please. Read Paul and what he had to say on slavery. That they should obey even a cruel master. Morally advanced, my ass.

And what's the point to judge the past by our moral standards? As a historian you virtually go blind if you do, since you fail to understand the motivations of certain societies. They lived by what they thought was the best for their particular society. By our standards it seems barbaric, but it's nothing but an emotional statement to apply our standards on people who lived and died more than a thousand years ago.

Morality is always changing. And it is and never was the same in every region of the world. By the standards of most Western countries the enforcement of capital punishment in the USA is barbaric. The whole punitive system is. So there aren't even the same standards within the Western world in our present day and age.

Well compare Paul (or Jesus) to Muhammad and they come out looking like roses. This is hundreds of years before him too. Actually this is my problem with the argument. While Christianity may have been morally advanced for the time, it totally fails when it we hold it up to our standards today.

Also I think when you and me say morality we are using the word in totally different ways. So when I say something is moral, it means that it causes the largest amount of good to the largest amount of people. That's the standard, not what people around subjectively say is moral. So what causes the most good to the most people hasn't changed at all in the last 10000 years. Slavery caused pain and suffering 1000 years ago and it causes the same pain and suffering today. It was always immoral it's just that people had a limited understanding of that. The same way people had a limited understanding of all kinds of things

[pocaracas]

They exist. Star Trek is one example. Replicator technology and dilithium crystals!
Like in your robots example, there will be lots of people with no need for work - all food will be pretty much inexpensive, all clothing, all manufacturing, all economics, all politics, all will be done by machines and will cost only the materials required to keep them running: power and parts. Even these may be gotten by the machines themselves, with surplus enough for human usage.
They'll be self healing, or able to repair themselves, or have other machines to repair most machines.
Everyone... well, almost everyone, will have no work left to do.
The concept of trading money for labor may become a bit outdated.
With food, power, clothing, home, will be provided by the machines, people do whatever they want - cook, paint, travel, study, plant their own stuff.

Star trek was always at best a Dream like in it's vision of the future. If infact we can develop our robotics to the point where they can replace all slave labor, then in essence the robots become our slaves. and the current unskilled work force gets bumped up with nothing to do. except get retrained and flood the market above them and so on.

The beautiful part is that there's no market above. No matter what kind of skill you have, it's of no worth - everything is taken care by machines.
People are left with lives to live - fun to have - hobbies to do.

You're from America, so I understand why you can't grasp the concept of not working and getting stuff... like what happens in a few social states.
Around here, unemployed people get a subsidy from the state to help them stay alive and able to find a new job.

You mean like in Greece and Italy where lazy bums are paid to do nothing. seems to be working very well for them. The whole country of Greece has now become the lazy bum of the EU and demands to be paid for not working/producing.

... yes... being from Portugal, the P in PIGS... yes!
Portugal
Italy
Greece
Spain

Get money to sit on your ass.

There used to be a subsidy for people who owned fields - good fields with good soil for planting stuff - that subsidy was given for a decade or more, for the express purpose of leaving the fields unplanted, uncared for, unproductive. Something to do with european quotas for production of certain agricultural products, I think. If a given country produces more than it should, that country must pay a fine to the EU... if that sounds nonsensical to you, is because it is! So, the country, in an effort not to pay any such fines, paid a subsidy to field owners so they wouldn't plant. It seems to make some economic sense, but small countries with small quotas, but large swaths of naturally productive land, waste money and land on such schemes, just so larger countries can keep their quotas and flood the market with crap.
A scheme clearly devised to keep PIGS as PIGS and make them even bigger PIGS, while the others keep growing and exporting goods... which are not so good anymore.
There used to be a time when "made in Germany" meant some damn good quality stuff... now, it's LIDL and ALDI cheap crap.

In a situation where goods are inexpensive due to machine labor, state-side income is also low, so there's little money to go around... well, actually, the amount of money is the same... its worth is different.... its worthless. Money becomes useless.

If you want to say that we are making slave machines, then.. yes, I agree. But aren't we just anthropomorphizing machines?

It depends on their level of consciencousness.

The trick is to build them and develop them just enough to do their jobs.... and keep doing them indefinitely.

yeah... that's why they buy american foreign debt...
Chinese communism isn't what it used to be 20 years ago.

They are buying American debt because it is backed by American gold. If we default they empty fort knox. There are a lot of rumors that on Obama's watch that is exactly what has happened.

What? gold?
Gold is no longer backing anything... it was because the monetary system is backed by nothing that we had the 2008 crash. And will keep having crashes, until politicians and economists reinstate the requirement that all economical goods be backed by material goods.
Or money looses value altogether because goods are inexpensive.

If a return on investment is foreseeable, then it will be done.

Only if the return exceeds available profits now and in the future. If China remain communist state then they will have no reason to leave.

I was looking a bit further in time, but yeah... you're right about the next decade... it doesn't look healthy for most humanity.

If we can't make it the next 10 years then 'time' become irrelevant.

We'll see what comes out of that hole... Until then, business as usual.

[abaris]

You mean like in Greece and Italy where lazy bums are paid to do nothing. seems to be working very well for them. The whole country of Greece has now become the lazy bum of the EU and demands to be paid for not working/producing.

I overlooked that first time round, but that fart is stinky enough to be adressed.

Sorry, but only one thing comes to mind when reading this: IGNORANT IDIOT.

You don't know anything about these countries and I bet you never have set foot outside the USA. When speaking about lazy bums in Greece, one might start with the ship owners, who are exempt from paying taxes. One might talk about the overblown defense budget that noone thinks to cut.

On the other hand one might also think about an unemployment rate of 27 percent as of 2014. Or about people not being able to afford food on the table, since the first things that have been taxed higher is food. One might also think about people not finding a hospital, since they're no longer insured because of their unemployment. One might also think about doctors running underground hospitals to treat them for free but at the same time risking their livelyhood, since by the letter of the law it's illegal.

But no, a good Amkerican christian such as your humble self can only think of lazy bums. You're a shitstain on the face of humanity. Please don't lecture us on morality.

[Redbeard The Pink]

I think "if he is found in his hand" indicates otherwise, and a sincere person would not make the verse of no effect just because an intermediary trader was involved.

Like I said before, Leviticus provides ample permissions for buying slaves from other nations, and there is no command or admonition to make sure those foreign slaves are not kidnapped from somewhere by whoever was selling them. The command against kidnapping, therefore, is most likely against kidnapping Hebrew citizens specifically, as foreign slaves did not need to be kidnapped--they could simply be bought per Leviticus 25.

Do you agree with the first statement on that page: The Hebrew term for slave, eved, is a direct derivation from the Hebrew verb la'avöd ("to work"), thus, the slave in Jewish law is really only a worker or servant.

I mean yeah...it's just like having a butler that you're allowed to beat to within an inch of his life and then watch him suffer to death for days...wait...no, this is pretty much slavery. Just because they used the same word for different kinds of servants, doesn't mean all those servants were treated the same, nor that any of them were treated particularly well. Hebrew slaves tended to be more like indentured servants and had to be treated better and freed eventually, but foreign slaves were afforded no such luxury. They served in perpetuity and in bondage, much like the African slaves kept by America later on.

This is speculation. So far we don't know how many foreign slaves were typically in Israel, or how many of those were prisoners of war as opposed to purchased.

It's also epistemically likely based on the circumstances, which elevates it slightly above mere uninformed speculation. While we don't know how many foreign vs. domestic slaves they had, the bible's restrictions on the amount of time Hebrew slaves could be kept and the restrictions on the kind of work they could do would have made it far more convenient and permanent to obtain foreign slaves, who could simply be bought rather than obtained under special legal circumstances (which was pretty much the only way to get a Hebrew servant). Furthermore, even people with Hebrew slaves probably would have kept some foreign ones to handle the work that Hebrew slaves couldn't legally be ordered to do (like washing feet, for instance).

[Drich]

You mean like in Greece and Italy where lazy bums are paid to do nothing. seems to be working very well for them. The whole country of Greece has now become the lazy bum of the EU and demands to be paid for not working/producing.

I overlooked that first time round, but that fart is stinky enough to be adressed.

Sorry, but only one thing comes to mind when reading this: IGNORANT IDIOT.

You don't know anything about these countries and I bet you never have set foot outside the USA. When speaking about lazy bums in Greece, one might start with the ship owners, who are exempt from paying taxes. One might talk about the overblown defense budget that noone thinks to cut.

On the other hand one might also think about an unemployment rate of 27 percent as of 2014. Or about people not being able to afford food on the table, since the first things that have been taxed higher is food. One might also think about people not finding a hospital, since they're no longer insured because of their unemployment. One might also think about doctors running underground hospitals to treat them for free but at the same time risking their livelyhood, since by the letter of the law it's illegal.

But no, a good Amkerican christian such as your humble self can only think of lazy bums. You're a shitstain on the face of humanity. Please don't lecture us on morality.

Actually sport I import equipment from those two countries and have designed and sold equipment back to them. In the process I've spoken several dozen of the sharpest minds in my/their field.
They have no issues calling a spade a spade. I was told their is way... Way too much governmental red tape. In Greece 2/3 of the population either work for the government or collect their version if unemployment from the government. Leaving the remaining 1/3 to generate revenue to fund all the checks the government is writing. One of the engineers said his sister was trying to open a cafe' in some tourist spot. She had to have a lease before she could file for her various licenses (which are excessive and costly not to mention the lease was like 3000e a month. it took her 16 months paying full rent with a fully equipt cafe that she could not open to the public. Not to mention all the various insurances benefits and taxes she had to pay out while not allowed to take revenue in. How did they fund all this? Unemployment. What kind of system pays more out than it can possible take in? This is one of a dozen stories I was told about how all the give away programs are completely destroying that country and a once proud people. They are the joke of all of the eu right now, because they can't pay their bills.

I also had dealings with engineers in Italy as well. (I taught the American classes on how to run and maintain their equipment) their big thing is unemployment, not because of military spending, but because the government pays people to do nothing. One of them asked while he was here about our unemployment rate at the time it was 12% (height of the housing fall) I told him that and he said, "12%!?!? This is bad for American? In Italy dis is berry guud! We half, unemployment of 28%, and it is higher in summer time.. Why? Because it is too hot in summer time to working good. In Italy we only need to work 6months, and the government will give you check for 6 month to do nothing. So husband work 6 month, then take a little break, then wife work six month and take a little break." Not to mention the whole country takes the month of August off. Which the government pays everyone two weeks of with the other two weeks coming from ones employer.. Nothing but emergency/critical services, and even then it is difficult to get people moving.

I've seen and heard enough to know that the give away programs/making everyone equal does not work. In essence everyone becomes a slave to the state. The EU is the best model of this socialist dream that has ever been and it's failing. So, yeah.. No thanks. I like the don't work don't eat economic model better.

Let the church feed the truly needy.

[Drich]

Star trek was always at best a Dream like in it's vision of the future. If infact we can develop our robotics to the point where they can replace all slave labor, then in essence the robots become our slaves. and the current unskilled work force gets bumped up with nothing to do. except get retrained and flood the market above them and so on.

The beautiful part is that there's no market above. No matter what kind of skill you have, it's of no worth - everything is taken care by machines.
People are left with lives to live - fun to have - hobbies to do.

You mean like in Greece and Italy where lazy bums are paid to do nothing. seems to be working very well for them. The whole country of Greece has now become the lazy bum of the EU and demands to be paid for not working/producing.

... yes... being from Portugal, the P in PIGS... yes!
Portugal
Italy
Greece
Spain

Get money to sit on your ass.

There used to be a subsidy for people who owned fields - good fields with good soil for planting stuff - that subsidy was given for a decade or more, for the express purpose of leaving the fields unplanted, uncared for, unproductive. Something to do with european quotas for production of certain  agricultural products, I think. If a given country produces more than it should, that country must pay a fine to the EU... if that sounds nonsensical to you, is because it is! So, the country, in an effort not to pay any such fines, paid a subsidy to field owners so they wouldn't plant. It seems to make some economic sense, but small countries with small quotas, but large swaths of naturally productive land, waste money and land on such schemes, just so larger countries can keep their quotas and flood the market with crap.
A scheme clearly devised to keep PIGS as PIGS and make them even bigger PIGS, while the others keep growing and exporting goods... which are not so good anymore.
There used to be a time when "made in Germany" meant some damn good quality stuff... now, it's LIDL and ALDI cheap crap.

It depends on their level of consciencousness.

The trick is to build them and develop them just enough to do their jobs.... and keep doing them indefinitely.

They are buying American debt because it is backed by American gold. If we default they empty fort knox. There are a lot of rumors that on Obama's watch that is exactly what has happened.

What? gold?
Gold is no longer backing anything... it was because the monetary system is backed by nothing that we had the 2008 crash. And will keep having crashes, until politicians and economists reinstate the requirement that all economical goods be backed by material goods.
Or money looses value altogether because goods are inexpensive.

Only if the return exceeds available profits now and in the future. If China remain communist state then they will have no reason to leave.

If we can't make it the next 10 years then 'time' become irrelevant.

We'll see what comes out of that hole... Until then, business as usual.

I was going to pick nits with you over a few things, but over all I agree with everything you said. Mark this day down someone!

[robvalue]

What kind of weak-ass, bum fluff of a god sets things up so slavery is desirable/necessary, and refuses to put an end to it when it does happen?

One that can kiss my ass is what. When you read most books that involve slavery, you're not meant to cheer about it.

[Drich]

what would you suggest to fix this then?

Grant people a living wage and make people pay 50 cents more for any given product. We were there before. When I was a child, an unskilled worker could care for a family. At least he could feed and cloth them without food stamps or other state subsidies. That system isn't written in stone. It grew within the last two or three decades.

But again in countries like india, and china and even here their are a surplus of unskilled laborers even with slave wages/labor iin effect. how can we put them all to work for a living wage (more money) when we can't do it now for less?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

I overlooked that first time round, but that fart is stinky enough to be adressed.

Sorry, but only one thing comes to mind when reading this: IGNORANT IDIOT.

You don't know anything about these countries and I bet you never have set foot outside the USA. When speaking about lazy bums in Greece, one might start with the ship owners, who are exempt from paying taxes. One might talk about the overblown defense budget that noone thinks to cut.

On the other hand one might also think about an unemployment rate of 27 percent as of 2014. Or about people not being able to afford food on the table, since the first things that have been taxed higher is food. One might also think about people not finding a hospital, since they're no longer insured because of their unemployment. One might also think about doctors running underground hospitals to treat them for free but at the same time risking their livelyhood, since by the letter of the law it's illegal.

But no, a good Amkerican christian such as your humble self can only think of lazy bums. You're a shitstain on the face of humanity. Please don't lecture us on morality.

Actually sport I import equipment from those two countries and have designed and sold equipment back to them. In the process I've spoken several dozen of the sharpest minds in my/their field.
They have no issues calling a spade a spade. I was told their is way... Way too much governmental red tape. In Greece 2/3 of the population either work for the government or collect their version if unemployment from the government. Leaving the remaining 1/3 to generate revenue to fund all the checks the government is writing. One of the engineers said his sister was trying to open a cafe' in some tourist spot. She had to have a lease before she could file for her various licenses (which are excessive and costly not to mention the lease was like 3000e a month. it took her 16 months paying full rent with a fully equipt cafe that she could not open to the public. Not to mention all the various insurances benefits and taxes she had to pay out while not allowed to take revenue in. How did they fund all this? Unemployment. What kind of system pays more out than it can possible take in? This is one of a dozen stories I was told about how all the give away programs are completely destroying that country and a once proud people. They are the joke of all of the eu right now, because they can't pay their bills.

I also had dealings with engineers in Italy as well. (I taught the American classes on how to run and maintain their equipment) their big thing is unemployment, not because of military spending, but because the government pays people to do nothing. One of them asked while he was here about our unemployment rate at the time it was 12% (height of the housing fall) I told him that and he said, "12%!?!? This is bad for American? In Italy dis is berry guud! We half, unemployment of 28%, and it is higher in summer time.. Why? Because it is too hot in summer time to working good. In Italy we only need to work 6months, and the government will give you check for 6 month to do nothing. So husband work 6 month, then take a little break, then wife work six month and take a little break." Not to mention the whole country takes the month of August off. Which the government pays everyone two weeks of with the other two weeks coming from ones employer.. Nothing but emergency/critical services, and even then it is difficult to get people moving.

I've seen and heard enough to know that the give away programs/making everyone equal does not work. In essence everyone becomes a slave to the state. The EU is the best model of this socialist dream that has ever been and it's failing. So, yeah.. No thanks. I like the don't work don't eat economic model better.

Let the church feed the truly needy.

It seems like the Greek people need to line up their politicians against the wall and fill them with hot lead.

[Divinity]

The Bible doesn't claim slavery is wrong because how else were they going to convert people who owned slaves? I imagine that the church of yesterday, much like people of today, picked and chose which rules they liked and didn't like to put in their religious texts. And of course people today go along with it because they're told that the bible is the word of god, and not the words of some shepherds over a thousand years ago.

People look to their religious texts for answers, and regurgitate those answers practically verbatim. They aren't willing to accept the idea that their religious texts were written by men, and that the idea of god doesn't have to be the same as those men. In fact it's practically beaten into them that if they disagree with their religious text, they will burn in a lake of fire for eternity.