Most personally convincing reasons you don't believe.

[Pat Mustard]

Many of you believe your atheism is a direct result of logical thinking. I believe it is an answered prayer. Especially if any of you have ever prayed for proof of God as 'christians.' God sent a storm into your lives to remove the house/faith you built on sand. To give you an opportunity to rebuild on Who Christ/God really is. If you start to build on the rock you will find you are not the only one helping you rebuild your 'house.'

Well, I obviously can't speak for "many of us", but personally..I just don't believe,  Never have.  Never prayed for proof, or received a storm in my life, or any of that other nonsense.  As I've been trying to tell you...I've had no access to or interaction with the divine.  And since I don't share the covetous motivations which led you to somehow compel yourself to believe in order to receive reasons to believe, an ability I do not possess in the first place, then the chances of my ever being convinced look pretty slim.  

-now, at first I sliced that whole post up, my usual style... I decided it was too unweidly...but..you do realize that you say some patently batshit crazy things when you talk about gods that atheists worship...or boxes that atheists create for gods they don't believe in...right?  

Look...you're unconvincing.  The stories are unconvincing.  I don't want what you want.  I can't do what you did.  I haven't experienced these things you claim to have experienced.   There are -reasons- that I'm not a christian, but I simply don't believe in gods...and I don't actually -need- a reason for that any more than I need a reason for not doing jumping jacks this very minute.   That's just the status of my belief, take it or leave it.  Others have done what you did, and I guess it just doesn't work the way you say it does, or at least not all of the time.  What else can anyone conclude?  I mean sure, you could be a complete tool and strongly insinuate that they're all a bunch of liars who can't get it right...but I;m not sure how convincing that;s supposed to be either.

Have to comment on something up there -

Do you not see what you are claiming of Christianity is most likely true of the religions you said Christianity 'borrows from?

LOL..the irony.  You might be right..those traditions might have borrowed from their contemporaries.........that might be something that happens to religious traditions...there may even be a term for it........ I'm sure that your fairy stories are a special case, though.

There's a term for it all right, syncretism. Mainstream christianity was big on it in the period it was establishing itself as mainstream. For example the bible and the philosophy was to a great extent adapted to greek ways of thinking, Platonic thought especially. Many of the early saints, feastdays and festivals were relabelling of Celtuc or Germanic equivalents (eg St Brigid is essentially the Celtic goddess of the same name, just declared christian). The signs of syncretism are there and obvious if only you look.

[emjay]

Never mind.

What's wrong, Squishy?

Oh nothing really. I was just pointing out an uncanny coincidence but then I thought better of it. But what the hell... I don't owe either of them anything... so I was just pointing out that it was funny he should mention the Dunning-Kruger Effect because I was just thinking today (yesterday) that Drich reminded me of someone who's been called that in the past. I don't know about Dunning-Kruger... for either of them... but nonetheless Drich did remind me of EP yesterday.

[robvalue]

Oh yes, we have many fine examples of that effect on the forums.

[vorlon13]

I take it you were in it, judging by how much you talk about it? If you were, how did you get out?

No, never Mormonized. 


I just find them to be ESPECIALLY false, and unusually lamely inspired.   Joe Smith was particularly inept at birthing a religion, that he succeeded is a tremendous disappointment and provides a disturbing look into the unfortunate compulsive gullibility endemic then as well as now.

I'd like to extend this thought a bit.

Clearly, all religions are equally false, false is false after all, I just find Mormonism 'especially' false since they have so conveniently and copiously documented all their bogus shit, whereas most other faiths have either lost their self-incriminating paperwork over the centuries, or, unlike the Mormons, were smart enough to not commit some/most/all their bullshit to paper in the first place, or if they did, they were then smart enough to not publish it and/or to just leave it out where anyone could find it.

Not realizing (for the most part) they were fucking up is icing on the cake. Joe Smith revelated from God the Mormons were to be a record keeping people, that some of his followers went a little overzealous and published way more of theose records than anyone in their right mind could/should/would have is actually unbelievable, but there we are. [chuckle, snort]

So that's why I find Mormonism to be 'especially' false; they amazingly enough, created a paper trail, and then, compounding their stupidity, published enough material to falsify their own religion literally one hundred times over.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's -amazing- how incompetent a group of otherwise competent individuals can become.

[vorlon13]

. . . in service to the Lord!


Praise Jesus !!!!

[emjay]

No, never Mormonized. 


I just find them to be ESPECIALLY false, and unusually lamely inspired.   Joe Smith was particularly inept at birthing a religion, that he succeeded is a tremendous disappointment and provides a disturbing look into the unfortunate compulsive gullibility endemic then as well as now.

I'd like to extend this thought a bit.

Clearly, all religions are equally false, false is false after all, I just find Mormonism 'especially' false since they have so conveniently and copiously documented all their bogus shit, whereas most other faiths have either lost their self-incriminating paperwork over the centuries, or, unlike the Mormons, were smart enough to not commit some/most/all their bullshit to paper in the first place, or if they did, they were then smart enough to not publish it and/or to just leave it out where anyone could find it.

Not realizing (for the most part) they were fucking up is icing on the cake. Joe Smith revelated from God the Mormons were to be a record keeping people, that some of his followers went a little overzealous and published way more of theose records than anyone in their right mind could/should/would have is actually unbelievable, but there we are. [chuckle, snort]

So that's why I find Mormonism to be 'especially' false; they amazingly enough, created a paper trail, and then, compounding their stupidity, published enough material to falsify their own religion literally one hundred times over.

Yeah but it just makes it all the more infuriating that despite all of that it still flourishes... that there are still people willing and/or needing to believe in it   Just like there are for all these other silly cults, or get rich quick schemes, or astrologers etc. So although it's great from the perspective that shows clear as day all the machinations behind a religion, the fact that it so blatantly and unashamedly exposes all its workings for all the world to see and still prospers just makes it all the more depressing because it just shows that there will always be some people who live by emotion alone... people who never take a step back, never think 'outside the box', are never mindful, and never examine themselves... people who are just happy to go with the flow as long as their needs and wants are met but have no tendency for introspection.

And I suppose it ultimately makes sense that that would be the case because not everyone across the world has interest in psychology or even access to it (in the sense of education or therapy)... and emotional mode is the default mode of living for any human (or animal). In a survival situation you wouldn't have time to sit back and reflect 'why do I do this? or why do I do that?' so you'd just be busy problem solving in the moment and focusing on the outside world. And in that situation emotions could save your life, acting as they do to provide instant information in the form of intuitions and insights, warnings (fear), indication of potential nearby resources (desire) etc way quicker than any reasoned process could ever do. So looked at like that, meta-awareness and introspection are something of a luxury that we can only really partake in once our more basic needs are met, which for the most part is what has happened with the development of civilization, but not everywhere unfortunately. But the flip side of that is that with civilization comes less urgent need to rely on our emotions for information and since for the most part our basic needs are met, left unchecked doing so can just lead to endless cycles of addiction and delusion and open us irrational emotional influence either by ourselves or by others and either wilful or not.

[Drich]

I haven't received an invitation from either the president or a god......nor have many others, despite your protestations..and even when they did try your method.  Precisely what I keep telling you.  Personally, I don't have any demands on when or how god met me.  I don't care whether or not we meet in the first place.  If god wants to meet me, okay.  If god has restrictions that will prevent him from meeting me..then we won't meet, and I;m okay with that as well.

I don't believe that you speak for a god and I know you aren't a god, so your opinions on the matter or what restrictions you believe are in place have no value to me in the matters of gods.

Ah, I wrongly assumed all people who claim they want proof of God, do and are willing to search for it.

You don't mind God comming to you, you are not willing to go to God.

Does that sum things up?

[The Grand Nudger]

Maybe there would be some merit in your questions..if there was anywhere to "go to god" in the first place, or anyone to show how that could be done?

I think it's amusing that you thought I wanted proof of god, from you. Maybe that's why you failed, you didn't know what you were being asked to produce? All I want from you is evidence of a functional human intelligence. Some indication that you understand how to consider and address your own claims and their shortcomings.

[LastPoet]

You don't mind God comming to you, you are not willing to go to God.

Does that sum things up?

Nope, because if you really wanted to sum things up, you would say: "here is bullshit that you must believe in to be saved." You guys never keep up with the your own doctrine.