Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?

[robvalue]

Why did he send false prophets out into the world?

He just seems to like making problems.

[Chad32]

I've noticed you trying to use a war analogy. The problem is that there's supposedly this omnipotent being that could solve the problem any way he wants, but prefers bloodshed and war. If this is how things are going, then it can only be because Yahweh prefers it this way. Which is why many accuse him of being evil, stupid, apathetic, or all of the above.

Chad32,

How do you think Christians can love their enemies, become better people and people grow up/become better people by learning how to protect other people around them if god intervenes every time something evil happens ?

You may think of it as intervention through non-intervention.

The same way everyone else does it. People like to compare him to a parent. A parent's job is to protect and raise their child, so they can one day become independent of the parent. If you care about someone, you will protect them to the best of their abilities. Especially from things that are not the direct result of their own choices. Instead, your god allows whatever happens to happen, and it's a sin to make an effort to become an independent person.

[Veritas_Vincit]

--I don't believe that 'absolute truth' exists, and the burden of proof would be on the person asserting that it does to demonstrate that it does. I believe we can have degrees of certainty based on evidence and logic. Human beings are inherently fallible, hence the need for science.--

How long have humans been testing reality ?  You may want to be careful, I do test people with words sometimes to learn more about them, somethings are not always as they appear.  We may agree goodwill is profitable in tests.  It appears we agree that evidence and logic are useful things, another word, wisdom.

--If you are saying that there is a way to test and prove the existence of God, I look forward to reading about it on the front page of every newspaper and scientific journal in the world.--

I hope you don't want to be arrogant not that it's a large inconvenience to me if a person is. We may agree there may be times to leave the arrogant ones alone.

Have you ever looked in the Clementine Homilies, Chapter XX - Some Parts of the Old Testament Written to Try Us. ?

Thoughts about that of false things about God deliberately with malice put in The Bible.

Veritas Vincit, you may look at my answers above.

Hi Thomas, 

I don't mean to sound arrogant, so let me explain that I have studied the arguments for the existence of God, as well as the Bible itself. I have seen hundreds of debates and discussions. Every apologetic argument I have every heard has been debunked, and I am happy to back that up if there are any you think still stand?

I am also of the opinion that standard apologetic arguments are rarely the real reason people hold on to their religious convictions and I would welcome your opinion on my recent post where I explain what I mean by this: http://atheistforums.org/thread-43581.html 

I am not familiar with Clementine Homilies, but having read the Bible I can say that it is full of evil and immoral preachments that can't just be rationalised away. Jesus said that "not one jot or tittle of the law can change until all has come to pass" and "He who does not uphold the law shall be considered least in the kingdom of heaven" - so all the old testament stuff sticks. And the the old testament is so full of barbarism that I can hardly think where to start, for example, God directly instructing genocide, child sacrifice and slavery for which I can give you chapter and verse, and wiping out most of the world's population in a flood, killing all the firstborn of Egypt... the God of the Bible puts Hitler and Saddam Hussein to shame.

[Crossless2.0]

People describe it as a war because -they- prefer the context and imagery of a war (and particularly imagining themselves as participants or accomplices of the winning side despite having done nothing..themselves).  

"Rah rah rah."
-Well, okay, here's your cross/gun - go do work.  
"Ah, no, no I'm good".

Can't seem to find a christian who would nail the fucker up or help the schmuck down...but they're all bellied up to the trough just the same.  It might be the laziest religion ever invented, which explains it's success -entirely-.  

This.

They love their warfare metaphors (how many self-styled "Spiritual Warriors" have I fucking encountered?), which pretty much means engaging the "enemy" in the laziest manner and with the most apparently ineffective weapon in the armory: prayer. And don't get me started on Paul's Grace vs. The Law nonsense. From top to bottom, this is a religion that was marketed in ancient times with the lowest common denominator in mind. It's geared to the mob. That might also explain its stubborn persistence here in 21st Century America.

[Rhondazvous]

This is for both theists and atheists to answer.

Imagine you travel back in time, and have the opportunity to save Jesus from being humiliated, tortured horribly, dying a slow painful death, having his body desecrated by the Roman guards, etc.

There is no question that your attempt would be successful. 

Would you?

14 pages over night? This must be the magic question. Did you know it would take off like this?

[Rhondazvous]

[quote='Thomas Kelly252525' pid='1303914' dateline='1466084021']


Chad32,

How do you think Christians can love their enemies, become better people and people grow up/become better people by learning how to protect other people around them if god intervenes every time something evil happens ?

You may think of it as intervention through non-intervention.

The same way everyone else does it. People like to compare him to a parent. A parent's job is to protect and raise their child, so they can one day become independent of the parent. If you care about someone, you will protect them to the best of their abilities. Especially from things that are not the direct result of their own choices. Instead, your god allows whatever happens to happen, and it's a sin to make an effort to become an independent person.
[/quote

None of that is actually true.
1. Loving one's enemies is not a virtue. It just let's your enemies know they can do whatever and you won't retaliate. This encourages violence.
2. Christians don't become better people by virtue of being Christians any more than atheist become better people by being atheists.
3. There is absolutely no evidence that god intervenes to prevent evil. But Christians close their eyes to evil and call it good in order to excuse god's in action.

[robvalue]

Oh wait, I just saw this question is for Christians! Sorry. Oh well, too late.

Makes more sense now.

[Simon Moon]

This is for both theists and atheists to answer.

Imagine you travel back in time, and have the opportunity to save Jesus from being humiliated, tortured horribly, dying a slow painful death, having his body desecrated by the Roman guards, etc.

There is no question that your attempt would be successful. 

Would you?

14 pages over night? This must be the magic question. Did you know it would take off like this?

I'm a bit surprised, actually.


What I am not surprised about, however, is that both Christians that have been replying, actually never answered the question.

It is a pretty simple binary question, and all they have done is tap dance for 14 pages.

[robvalue]

Oh well, I'll pretend to be a Christian so we get some damn answers.

No, I'd let him die. It's God's plan, to sacrifice himself to himself, to allow himself a loophole to give himself permission to change his own rules, so he can forgive people for being born with sin from some apple woman and... wait, what was the question again?

[Crossless2.0]

I don't see how a Christian could answer any other way than to say, "Yeah, I'd let him die because of the plan!"

You know . . . no pain, no gain.