Theists: would you view the truth?

[Drich]

Here's a question for religious theists who have some sort of story associated with their religion. If you had the chance, would you view the events for yourself, to see once and for all what really happened? There's a worm hole open, let's say, that you could look through. Maybe it happened just like you think, maybe it was a bit different, or maybe it was nothing like it.

Would you stick with whatever faith/confidence you have now, or would you check the facts to confirm? Why?

I did a thread on this..
http://atheistforums.org/thread-11941.html

Granted it was sometime ago but the point I made is still valid.

In that we have been treated or brainwashed to accept information is a certain way, almost to the point where we do not question it (Point in case, at how many people were outright shocked over the brexit or the trump win.) While the idea of a time machine or worm hole is impossible the "next best thing" would be how you currently process and accept information. So the real question becomes do we blindly just accept the 'proof' you all have been conditioned to blindly believe... Again look how wrong this process was in just predicting the presidential win! All of this was tangable real world info, and yet it was presented inaccurately.

[Minimalist]

They might have been less interested in the importance of the DATE and more interested in the importance of the SELF-PREDICTED RESURRECTION OF A MAN.

More likely they were just assholes who fell for a cock and bull story they heard around a campfire.

I know you think your boy is special.... but he wasn't.  There were similar 'gods' all over the ANE at the time.

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In that we have been treated or brainwashed to accept information is a certain way

That's hysterical coming from you!

[robvalue]

For the purposes of this thread, a wormhole is possible, and you have the chance to look into it. All I want to know is whether you confirm, or trust to faith.

The point is that confirming carries a risk of losing all faith. Also I wonder if it would be immoral to view such evidence as it could demonstrate a lack of faith to do so.

[robvalue]

Let's say it was all perfectly normal stuff. All mentions of gods and miracles and resurrections were fabrications. Jesus was just some preacher who got crucified for being a nuisance.

I suppose the question is what actions do you take just because of the story, and what things don't you do just because of the story. Take for granted you stop any religious rituals and such. I'm interested in morality.

I'd love to hear all theists' thoughts on this.

If you take for granted that I stop any religious rituals (I assume that means also religious practices like prayer, no meat on Fridays, penance, etc.), then very little at all would change. I do those things because of the story. I would probably "replace" prayer with periods of quiet contemplation/reflection upon myself, my actions and relationships, and upon "being, itself".

I'm not sure any of the things I currently "don't do" would suddenly become more appealing to me.

Thanks for your answer.

I find it very hard to understand religious practices. I'd be very interested if you'd be prepared to talk me through why you do some of those things, in more detail. For me, even if I knew all those stories were true, I wouldn't do any of that stuff. I don't get the point.

Same question goes for all religious theists.

[robvalue]

I mean, I already don't eat meat on Fridays. But why don't you? Does it benefit you in this life? If so, why would you stop? If not, I guess it's about ensuring the best afterlife... I guess? I'm not sure why else anyone does these religious practices. If it's about thanking God or whatever, it seems over the top considering he is usually described as expending zero energy in doing all this. Or am I thanking him for not coming back and turning it off? Not breaking my legs?

[Ignorant]

I mean, I already don't eat meat on Fridays. But why don't you? [1] Does it benefit you in this life? [2] If so, why would you stop? [3] If not, I guess it's about ensuring the best afterlife... I guess? [4] I'm not sure why else anyone does these religious practices. [5] If it's about thanking God or whatever, it seems over the top considering he is usually described as expending zero energy in doing all this. [6] Or am I thanking him for not coming back and turning it off? Not breaking my legs?

I'd be happy to talk to you about some of these things!

1) Primarily, it is a "penance" which calls to mind Jesus's death on Good Friday. By mindfully taking care to give up meat on Friday, we try to honor Jesus who gave up his "flesh" for our salvation. Secondarily, the community of Christians (i.e. the Church) asks its members to do this. In this secondary way, I can act in solidarity with all Christians, and together with them, call to mind the Lord's Passion.

Even so, the modern world has made these food selections arbitrary. Today, Catholics may choose some other form of "penance" to engage in every Friday rather than not eating meat.

2) Yes. It is a concrete way to enter into more abstract realities, i.e. it is a very simple concrete act which draws your attention to the more abstract contemplation of salvation on the cross, and it is a very simple concrete act which draws you into the more abstract communion with people all over the world. Both of these things bring me into a deeper understanding of human life.

3) If there is no Passion to contemplate or "tap into", and there is no real Christian community which that Passion creates, then the practice loses its meaning and its source. I might still refrain from eating meat on Fridays, but for completely different reasons. Or, I may treat Friday like any other day. Who knows?

4) Well that is one of the absurd things about Christianity. If Jesus is God incarnate, then this is another way of saying that Jesus brought our afterlife TO THIS life. We believe that our religious liturgies and practices allow us to "taste" that afterlife, HERE in THIS life. That is what the Kingdom of God in Jesus's preaching is about. That is why we go to Mass. That is why we participate in the sacraments. God comes to earth in those sacraments, and brings the eternal life for which we hope with him. It's absurd, I know! But it is also the good news!

5) See 4. Through Jesus, his community, and the religion he established, heaven is overflowing into our life, while we wait for its fulfillment at the resurrection. In other words, we don't do these things to "score points" for a good afterlife. We do them to experience that afterlife, here and now, WHILE we wait for it! That's the "good news". Hopefully, by doing these things, other people will be invited to share in that life.

6) Thanking god is part of it, sure. But we thank god in the way that Jesus thanked god, and we are united to that thanking act, and that union brings us into real contact with god himself, here on earth. In other words, united to Christ's act of thanking (in Greek, eucharistia), the liturgy draws us into the divine life itself, which is eternal life, the afterlife, experienced here in this life.

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They might have been less interested in the importance of the DATE and more interested in the importance of the SELF-PREDICTED RESURRECTION OF A MAN.

More likely they were just assholes who fell for a cock and bull story they heard around a campfire. [1]

I know you think your boy is special.... but he wasn't.  There were similar 'gods' all over the ANE at the time. [2]

1) Yup. Does that usually lead to a global religion of the scale of Judeo-Christianity, or are we just a 3000 year series of unfortunate events?

2) Fair enough.

[robvalue]

Ignorant: Very interesting, thanks for your answer.

I'll probably come back to more points later, but for now:

You say you do things to experience the afterlife somewhat. Does it work? What do you feel?

Do you think this could all be a placebo effect? You said you'd stop if the stories weren't true, so presumably you'd expect this knowledge to ruin the experience. From this point of view, why take the risk of finding out for sure and maybe losing those feelings?

[Ignorant]

Ignorant: Very interesting, thanks for your answer.

I'll probably come back to more points later, but for now:

You say you do things to experience the afterlife somewhat. Does it work? What do you feel? [1]

Do you think this could all be a placebo effect? [2] You said you'd stop if the stories weren't true, so presumably you'd expect this knowledge to ruin the experience. [3] From this point of view, why take the risk of finding out for sure and maybe losing those feelings? [4]

No problem, I'm happy to answer.

1) Yes it works! Sometimes I "feel" the profound presence of divinity. Sometimes I don't. Either way, I know by faith (not experience) that God is present in the liturgy and that I meet him there. My feeling or experience doesn't alter that knowledge. I know its "working" even if I am not directly aware.

2) Sure that is a possibility, but I know by faith that it isn't placebo. It's not a conclusion I reached by syllogism. 

3) Well, no, I wouldn't put it that way. Instead, if Jesus isn't who he said he was and/or didn't do what the Church says he did, it would remove the authority upon which my knowledge is based, and would render the ritual itself as mere motions and words. I would still seek union with God, but now I would know that Jesus is not the way to do that, much less the religion he founded and the liturgical rituals he instituted. So I'd seek other means of receiving that union (like I said, perhaps through contemplation of "being").

4) I don't do the ritual actions for the sake of the feelings. I do them for the sake of the reality which sometimes generates those feelings. I pray and participate in liturgies because I believe they actually draw me toward union with God himself, and that God himself is active within me to pray and participate. I believe that because Jesus promised that is the case. I find that promise trustworthy because he also promised to die and then rise from the dead, and then did exactly that.

Even if I never "felt" a thing while doing any of it, I'd still do it because I think it represents reality. Even if I feel nothing, I know by faith that the experience is truly one of divine life, because Jesus promised that it was.

With that knowledge, I am not wanting to "find out" as if I need to correct for some doubts while at the same time risking my view of reality. Right now, in the rituals and liturgies, I experience the same divine presence that was in Christ and his Passion and Resurrection, here on this earth in 2016, BUT only as the liturgy and the rituals mediate that reality (which I believe they really do). By going back see those events first hand, it would remove the mediation of the liturgy and the signs, and I would be in the immediate presence of God made man, co-passionately suffering every individual human's suffering (i.e. suffering the particular and personal things every one of us suffers, but suffering them WITH us) through his Passion and Crucifixion, and his raising us all from that suffering in his resurrection.

I'm not worried about the possibility that it isn't real (I already know it's real). That's not a reason for my wanting to see it all. It's kinda like Mary. After the angel told her that Elizabeth was already pregnant, Mary went to go see for herself. I don't think she was like, "I wonder if it's true?!?!!?". I'm pretty sure it was more, "I can't wait to celebrate with her!" She wanted to be in the presence of the truth she already held to be true. That's kinda why I want to see it for myself as well.

[vorlon13]

the Gospels don't agree on the Good Friday thing, maybe abstaining from meat should be done on a couple of days, just to be sure ?

[Ignorant]

the Gospels don't agree on the Good Friday thing, maybe abstaining from meat should be done on a couple of days, just to be sure ?

This is just incorrect.