Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?

[The Grand Nudger]

"I love you, why do you make me do this to you Tina!"

I don;t know what's more craven. Torturing the piss out of someone, or a third party trying to lay the blame on the tortured in order to excuse their sick ass bff. This is just one of the many ways that religion poisons everything. It leaves otherwise decent and normal human beings saying and thinking profoundly evil shit. Even more disturbing...it registers in their minds as piety.

[Cyberman]

[Harry Nevis]

Just FYI, God doesn't "torture" people in Hell. Hell is a state of being where you make a conscious decision to turn away from God in the next life. And in doing so, you turn away from everything that is good and beautiful. When you don't have the physical world to distract you, you're left with nothing if not the love and goodness you rejected. The suffering comes from the emptiness of that, not from little horned men being ordered by God to burn you with torches.

Many christians disagree.

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The reason that the hell concept is a deal-breaker for me regarding the Christian god is that I can actually emphasize with people trapped in hell.  Where is that empathy in the people defending the actions of that god?

Why do so many people defend the schoolyard bully and claim that the beat-up kid had it coming, rather than calling out the bully?

Even though i dont believe in the fire and brimstone version of hell you are presenting here, if that is how it was and someone like Hitler was there, id have a hard time feeling sorry for him. Or seeing him as a victim of bullying. Itd be pretty ironic to see him as a beat up kid or victim of bullying considering what he did in those concentration camps to millions of innocent people and families.

I feel the same way about your god.

[SteveII]

Then your question is simply why did God create the world we have. Why do you prejudice the question with the phrase "untold suffering". Do you think that on average there is more suffering in the world than not? 

Well yes you could ask that, but god did exactly that he created a world he knew would suffer, not only that he created a world where the majority would go to hell for eternity, why do you think that is creating muddy waters .  Do you believe it to be untrue or unfair to mention in some way  ?

A great summary for God's purpose can be found here: https://www.gotquestions.org/purpose-of-man.html

Regarding if God knew mankind would sin: https://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew...e-sin.html

What makes you think they are valid points, or answer any questions ?

Because you asked "why" several times. "What is God's purpose" is exactly the answer to the question "why". 

What is with you and "untold suffering"? Have you had a difficult life or are you poisoning the well to make your argument stronger? It's depressing!

Well yes, a depressing feature that Christianity has use to great effect to coerce the ignorant, more to the point do you believe the bible to be true when it talks about hell ? or do you believe burning in hell forever does not fit a description of untold suffering ?

Not so fast. Your OP specifically said "why he allowed people to be born who had not even existed before procreation to enter a world of suffering?". Shifting your "suffering" window to include hell weakens you point significantly. If hell is a result of free actions and God does not want anyone to go there, then it is a consequence of a bad choice, not the original purpose. 

Have you every watched children behave over time? No one needs to teach them to be selfish, disobedient, and willful. It is in our nature to do so.

Then god created us like that, making judging us for those traits a nonsense

With free will?? Yes, he did. You cannot have love or true worship without fee will. Your point would only be persuasive if we could not avoid judgement. We can, so your objection is weak from a logic standpoint. 

If there is no such thing as free will, then no one is ultimately responsible for their actions. Christianity unravels. 

Well yes, absolutely but free will under duress of hell is not really free will at all.

Again, that might be a good point if that was the only reason for becoming a Christian. It is clearly not, so it is not a very strong point either. 

Apparently God's purpose was not achieved by making two human beings. See above link.

 Oh nobody is stopping god if he existed making more, just that he spare the rest of us poor folks eternity in hell.  Why not simply create spiritual beings, cut out the middle man so to speak.  Why create fragile human beings at all ?

Since it is becoming clear that you are not going to read the article I will paste it below. Additionally, you seem to be arguing against a religion that you know very little about. Trying to make logical arguments without understanding God's purpose, free will, God's holiness and justice, and other pretty basic doctrines, is only convincing to someone who has assumed the conclusion--not reasoned to it. 

Question: "What is the purpose of man, according to the Bible?"

Answer: The Bible makes it abundantly clear that God created man and that He created him for His glory (). Therefore, the ultimate purpose of man, according to the Bible, is simply to glorify God.

A harder question to answer, perhaps, is what does it look like to glorify God? In , we’re told to worship God with gladness and “know that the Lord is God. It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.” Part of what it looks like to glorify God is to acknowledge who God is (our Creator, for starters) and to praise and worship Him as such.

We fulfill our purpose of glorifying God also by living our lives in relationship and faithful service to Him (1 Samuel 12:24; John 17:4). Since God created man in His image (Genesis 1:26–27), man’s purpose cannot be fulfilled apart from Him. King Solomon tried living for his own pleasure, yet at the end of his life he concluded that the only worthwhile life is one of honor and obedience to God ().

In our fallen state, sin separates us from God and makes it impossible to glorify Him on our own. But through Jesus Christ’s sacrifice, our relationship with God is reconciled—our sin is forgiven and no longer creates a barrier between God and us ().

Interestingly, we are able to glorify God because He gave us glory first. David writes in Psalm 8:4–6, “What is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them? You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor. You made them rulers over the works of your hands; you put everything under their feet.” (This is also repeated in Hebrews 2:6–8.) This verse reveals another purpose that God has given man: dominion over the earth (). Again, though, this can only be properly fulfilled through a right relationship with God.

The more we get to know our Creator and the more we love Him (Matthew 22:37–38), the better we understand who we are and what our purpose is. We were created to bring Him glory. God has unique plans and purposes for each person (Psalm 139:13–16), but we can know that, whatever those plans look like, they will ultimately result in His glory (Proverbs 3:6; 1 Corinthians 10:31).  https://www.gotquestions.org/purpose-of-man.html

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It seems implicit in your question 1 that God was surprised by the fall. He was not. His purpose did not change because he always knew it would happen. Why in the world do you imagine that "starting over" would produce different results? Without perfect knowledge, free will will always result in sin eventually. 


Regarding question 2, souls don't exist until conception.

(emphasis mine)

My goodness gracious, can't let such a vile heresy pass unremarked upon.  Souls are eternal.  But they are only inspirated into human bodies upon successful birth.

Damn, this Sunday School 101 stuff that is totally mysterious to even believers is just awesomely jaw dropping to me.

We REALLY need better, more pious and learned theists posting here.

That is simply wrong. Not only wrong, but impossible.

[vorlon13]

It's Biblical.

Not my problem actually.

You're free to announce a revelation to comport to your apostasy and start your own religion at any time.


YEA !!!


One more Schism for JESUS !!!! Praise Jesus and his 70,000 schisms !!!!

[Cod]

First, when you're discussing something you believe in and addressing challenges to those beliefs, it's not a waste.

Second, from  our POV we have eternity, so even if time here is wasted, it's not much of a loss. You guys only have this one life. It's sad actually.

What is sad is that you believe that you are heading for an eternal existence somewhere. What do you envisage this existence to be like? Do you not think that an eternal existence would be torture to endure? Do you think you get to opt out after 500,000 years when the boredom becomes too much for you, or are you stuck with it?

[possibletarian]

No. You previously allowed free will, but now you're attempting to shift the fault from people's free choices back to God.

But it isn't free willed people sending anyone to be tortured neither did free willed people create hell, the bottom line is god knew what would happen but went ahead anyway.

Or ignorant. For instance, did you know that the Mosaic law which you reference was offered by God to Israel, and the freely accepted it?

Oh course they were not, anyone who disobeyed was stoned, hardly fruitful ground for free will, I'm really surprised you don't know this.
When I say to my daughter she has a few choices I don't give her one that results in a painful death, and then call it a free and fair choice. It constantly amazes me how theists minds are so easily twisted like this.

And again, that's rewarding enemies at the expense of friends, which makes no sense.

But yet you state you are happy with people after the rapture not getting a choice, even those who would believe.

Dealing with is not really what happens, you don't deal with something that was your plan from the start, you simply execute your plan, there is no justice involved in doing what you planned to do anyway.

Either way he's handling his responsibilities, which was your point.

He does not have any responsibilities if he is truly what we call a god and can do whatever he wants, to have responsibilities you have to have someone to be responsible to. the point being that eternal torture is such an arbitrary petty thing to do it's clearly not a god worth following puts him in the same league as Allah.

The point being it is incompatible with biblical claims such as a desire to see all men saved, when all along his plan was definitely that many more go to hell, even potential future believers.

With free will, God doesn't get all his desires.
That's not incompatible, it's a consequence of free will.

But it was his desire to create people who would go to hell and be tortured for eternity, it was his plan from the beginning, so yes even with free will god gets all he desires.  There is a clear contradiction in scripture, it is insane to implement a plan you know will result in hell, if it's your desire to not have anyone go to hell.

Well no, once you believe something to be true, and this is especially true of religious belief given the consequences you think will happen if you challenge it then no, you cannot question it.


No clue what you're saying here.

For instance would you stone your child for disobeying you, if it meant disobeying god if you didn't ?

Then what point were you making

That there is a purpose for the unsaved, so you can't simply say that God should have just allowed the birth of those who would be saved.

If there is a purpose for the unsaved, then being unsaved is all part of god's plan, so hell is also a part of gods plan, but that's the point does that make sense when god wishes all men to be saved ?

The Romans 9 passage is about Israel, not the unsaved per-say. but that god allowed the gentiles in to make Israel jealous.  But then claims all Israel will be saved.  The bottom line is there is no justification at all other than a brainwashing to believe so.

Someone who creates people just to be put in a place of torture is simply not compatible with a loving god. These are a perfect example of how religion twists peoples mind from the obvious to the implausible.

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[quote='alpha male' pid='1651484' dateline='1509925025']

First, when you're discussing something you believe in and addressing challenges to those beliefs, it's not a waste.

Second, from  our POV we have eternity, so even if time here is wasted, it's not much of a loss. You guys only have this one life. It's sad actually.

What is sad is that you believe that you are heading for an eternal existence somewhere. What do you envisage this existence to be like? Do you not think that an eternal existence would be torture to endure? Do you think you get to opt out after 500,000 years when the boredom becomes too much for you, or are you stuck with it?
[/quote]

Apparently they are also going to praise god forever, i think i would opt out at the third rendition of 'Shine Jesus Shine'

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[quote='Astreja' pid='1651964' dateline='1509993147']

The reason that the hell concept is a deal-breaker for me regarding the Christian god is that I can actually emphasize with people trapped in hell.  Where is that empathy in the people defending the actions of that god?

Why do so many people defend the schoolyard bully and claim that the beat-up kid had it coming, rather than calling out the bully?

Even though i dont believe in the fire and brimstone version of hell you are presenting here, if that is how it was and someone like Hitler was there, id have a hard time feeling sorry for him. Or seeing him as a victim of bullying. Itd be pretty ironic to see him as a beat up kid or victim of bullying considering what he did in those concentration camps to millions of innocent people and families.
[/quote]

Many Christians believe different things about hell, but the concept of hell is of course not limited to the Abrahamic religions, the Jews likely got theirs as a variation of the Babylonian and other cultures afterlife.

https://listverse.com/2013/09/04/10-fasc...s-of-hell/

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Because you asked "why" several times. "What is God's purpose" is exactly the answer to the question "why". 

God's purpose was not in question, with foreknowledge he created a world of sin and pain, that was his plan.

Well yes, a depressing feature that Christianity has use to great effect to coerce the ignorant, more to the point do you believe the bible to be true when it talks about hell ? or do you believe burning in hell forever does not fit a description of untold suffering ?


Not so fast. Your OP specifically said "why he allowed people to be born who had not even existed before procreation to enter a world of suffering?". Shifting your "suffering" window to include hell weakens you point significantly. If hell is a result of free actions and God does not want anyone to go there, then it is a consequence of a bad choice, not the original purpose.

The world of suffering includes hell, that was god's plan from the beginning after all the amount of time sinners are going to spend on earth is dwarfed to insignificance by the time spent in hell (forever).
And of course it was gods original purpose he cannot be all knowing and at the same time do something that is not his original purpose, that's just silly and contradictory.  

Then god created us like that, making judging us for those traits a nonsense

With free will?? Yes, he did. You cannot have love or true worship without fee will. Your point would only be persuasive if we could not avoid judgement. We can, so your objection is weak from a logic standpoint. 

We can't avoid judgement. (according to the bible), what you mean is we can choose to obey, but what is the value of choosing to obey if we can't choose any other without punishment.
And frankly god is doing a very poor job of promoting the good side of obeying him, when we see what evil the church has done, one would have thought that at the very least he would keep his own in check.

Well yes, absolutely but free will under duress of hell is not really free will at all.

Again, that might be a good point if that was the only reason for becoming a Christian. It is clearly not, so it is not a very strong point either.

 

But still duress

Oh nobody is stopping god if he existed making more, just that he spare the rest of us poor folks eternity in hell.  Why not simply create spiritual beings, cut out the middle man so to speak.  Why create fragile human beings at all ?

Since it is becoming clear that you are not going to read the article I will paste it below. Additionally, you seem to be arguing against a religion that you know very little about. Trying to make logical arguments without understanding God's purpose, free will, God's holiness and justice, and other pretty basic doctrines, is only convincing to someone who has assumed the conclusion--not reasoned to it. 


Question: "What is the purpose of man, according to the Bible?"

Answer: The Bible makes it abundantly clear that God created man and that He created him for His glory (). Therefore, the ultimate purpose of man, according to the Bible, is simply to glorify God.

A harder question to answer, perhaps, is what does it look like to glorify God? In , we’re told to worship God with gladness and “know that the Lord is God. It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.” Part of what it looks like to glorify God is to acknowledge who God is (our Creator, for starters) and to praise and worship Him as such.

We fulfill our purpose of glorifying God also by living our lives in relationship and faithful service to Him (1 Samuel 12:24; John 17:4). Since God created man in His image (Genesis 1:26–27), man’s purpose cannot be fulfilled apart from Him. King Solomon tried living for his own pleasure, yet at the end of his life he concluded that the only worthwhile life is one of honor and obedience to God ().

In our fallen state, sin separates us from God and makes it impossible to glorify Him on our own. But through Jesus Christ’s sacrifice, our relationship with God is reconciled—our sin is forgiven and no longer creates a barrier between God and us ().

Interestingly, we are able to glorify God because He gave us glory first. David writes in Psalm 8:4–6, “What is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them? You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor. You made them rulers over the works of your hands; you put everything under their feet.” (This is also repeated in Hebrews 2:6–8.) This verse reveals another purpose that God has given man: dominion over the earth (). Again, though, this can only be properly fulfilled through a right relationship with God.

The more we get to know our Creator and the more we love Him (Matthew 22:37–38), the better we understand who we are and what our purpose is. We were created to bring Him glory. God has unique plans and purposes for each person (Psalm 139:13–16), but we can know that, whatever those plans look like, they will ultimately result in His glory (Proverbs 3:6; 1 Corinthians 10:31).  https://www.gotquestions.org/purpose-of-man.html

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None of that answers my question, it's just a babble of various scripture references and links along with what the author thinks.
It does however say that he has a plan for everyone (some of which will include going to hell), so those destined for hell are planned to do so, so why then do you believe in free will ?

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[quote='possibletarian' pid='1649357' dateline='1509671435']
Question 1
If he had simply stopped reproduction then only those responsible will have suffered, instead of the insanity of being born to abusers, religious nut jobs, along with death disease and suffering then he could simply have started again.  We do it it with cattle, animals, even humans if they have a disease that threatens the rest of us  or the rest of a heard of cattle, they isolate and often kill the diseased cattle to stop it infecting others.

I'm not asking why god allows suffering, but rather why he allowed people to be born who had not even existed before procreation to enter a world of suffering?

My guess would be because He saw that ultimately whatever goodness came from allowing humans to exist would far outweigh the suffering. If this weren't the case, I assume He wouldn't have done it.

What amount of good would there have to be to outweigh the suffering ? I mean to a god who could presumably make the world the way he wanted it.
It's not a question i expect you to know a clear answer too, after all I don't know what the answer to that would like either.

Question 2
If there is some kind  of argument that there has to be a number god has to reach, then where are these spirits/souls before they are born into human bodies ?  Do you perhaps believe in some kind of re-incarnation, or souls waiting for an incarnation ?

I'm not sure what you are talking about with this "numbers" thing. In my religion, we believe that souls don't exist prior to a person being conceived. They begin existing at that moment. No, I do not believe in reincarnation or souls waiting to be incarnated.

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Well does not bible talk about in Romans 11:25 '
Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.' And then I assume it will go back to Israel again, but this time they will see the truth.

And souls not even existing till conception (which is pretty much what i thought most Christians believed) makes me wonder why god didn't stop procreation then.

[Aegon]

Second, from  our POV we have eternity, so even if time here is wasted, it's not much of a loss. You guys only have this one life. It's sad actually.

Excuse you. I do have eternity! When I die, I won't know it. As far as my psyche is concerned, I'm fuckin' immortal!

[Succubus]

In God's house there are many mansions/dwelling places. I would say till those spaces are filled.

In my fathers house? That's from the orange catholic bible isn't it boy? The house of Atredies?
I just loves me reading the bible, it has so many parallels with Iain Banksies' culture novels. You never know what's going to happen next. The serpent, that's a shit stirring drone from a GCU if ever I saw one. The god thingy, that's an errant mind from the interesting times gang, Exession, up yo no good I'll tell you. The ark! For fuck sake, some of the GSV would have bother storing that many lifeforms. Soddom?
Only a lazygun could do that. And whos on the cross? Well fuck my old boots if it isn't our old pal the Teflon worrier, bullet toothed Zakalwie, zakalwee the bullet dodger. And where's Diziet Sma? Giving Pilot a blow job.
And what's his name, the cleaver cunt in Player if games? trying to decipher !st chronicles.

Now a little about me. I am married to lady Sharrow and I am in posse sin of the last lazygun. You have one week to find and read 'The wasp Ffactory' or I will cause your eyeballs to explode. If mayhaps you are a potless wanker then this nay help;

Arr Jim lad! Shivver me timbers, All doctors is swabs!

Savvy?

I am deliriously happy at the moment court-icy of me mate's latest batch of indoor tomatoes.  Souuld I fuck off? What says you all?

[The Grand Nudger]

Clear Air Turbulence reporting for duty.