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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 1:51 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 1:53 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(November 7, 2017 at 12:51 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: Ok, why does he require it?
Here's what I believe:
God doesn't require it. We have a choice. But if we choose to turn away from Him in the next life, it'll leave us with nothing. Because we will no longer be physical bodies in a physical world with distractions and other things to do and to find fulfillment in. In the next life we are spirit and there is only God as fulfillment (though He is the ultimate and complete fulfillment), so if we reject that fulfillment we will have an extreme sense of emptiness. This emptiness causes extreme suffering, and that's the state of being in Hell.
God does not want that for us because He is inherently and completely good. That is why He wants us to accept Him and allow ourselves to be fulfilled by Him and His goodness and love. I think there are people who, upon dying and seeing God, will be either too horrible or too proud for that. These are the people who will find themselves in the state of being in Hell. It's their rejection of goodness and love, it's not God's punishment.
Here's a good explanation about Hell the way I think it actually is: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/h...gewanted=1
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 1:57 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 2:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You make god sound far too rapey and abusive to be lovable. I wouldn't let a person like that near me..or anyone I loved. I guess the cruelest part of the joke is that..since it's a god, it's not like we could do anything about it. If it gets it's jollies by tossing people into the pit...then plenty of people are going to end up in the pit.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:11 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 2:16 pm by John V.)
(November 7, 2017 at 1:11 pm)SteveII Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 1:04 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: That is simply bullshit. People do this all the time, and many christians will admit to it. You need to look up the word entail.
Exactly what I was thinking.
(November 7, 2017 at 1:16 pm)possibletarian Wrote: How can it be god's will that not all perish and come to knowledge of truth, but at the same time knowingly create a world where his will cannot come into being.
This question has been answered multiple times. CL put it very succinctly:
Quote:As to your question, as I said: I would assume because He saw that ultimately the existence of humans would be a net good.
Your refusal to acknowledge and/or inability to understand the answers that have been given doesn't make the question unanswerable.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:21 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 2:23 pm by Harry Nevis.)
(November 7, 2017 at 1:51 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 12:51 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: Ok, why does he require it?
Here's what I believe:
God doesn't require it. We have a choice. But if we choose to turn away from Him in the next life, it'll leave us with nothing. Because we will no longer be physical bodies in a physical world with distractions and other things to do and to find fulfillment in. In the next life we are spirit and there is only God as fulfillment (though He is the ultimate and complete fulfillment), so if we reject that fulfillment we will have an extreme sense of emptiness. This emptiness causes extreme suffering, and that's the state of being in Hell.
God does not want that for us because He is inherently and completely good. That is why He wants us to accept Him and allow ourselves to be fulfilled by Him and His goodness and love. I think there are people who, upon dying and seeing God, will be either too horrible or too proud for that. These are the people who will find themselves in the state of being in Hell. It's their rejection of goodness and love, it's not God's punishment.
Here's a good explanation about Hell the way I think it actually is: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/h...gewanted=1
"Inherently and completely good"? I think most parents would consider eternally torturing (whether its flames or god's absence, if he's all he's cracked up to be, it would be torture) their kids for disobedience not good. And, if that kid is brought up in an orphanage with only rumors about parents and not knowing they even exist, and the parent shows up to punish them for not doing what they had wanted him to, that would not be considered good, IMO.
Using words like "love", "good" and "just" and applying them to the biblical god makes the way we use them as humans unrecognizable.
(November 7, 2017 at 1:03 pm)SteveII Wrote: Actually this short Q&A addresses the point of why worship compared to just knowledge of God...
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings...-love-god/
Don't care what this charlatan says.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:24 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 1:16 pm)possibletarian Wrote: Given that god could not get wants without creating a world with what you call free will and a sinful world at the same time, we are not talking about someone who happen to come across circumstances beyond their control, but a god who can control everything.
I want to reply to this one point because it illustrates in one sentence that your main objection is founded on bad reasoning. If God created people with free will, then he has by definition, subordinated his ability to control everything. Free will entails a sinful world. Free will entails that God has subordinated control of everything. Your sentence does not make sense.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:25 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 2:11 pm)alpha male Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 1:11 pm)SteveII Wrote: You need to look up the word entail.
Exactly what I was thinking.
(November 7, 2017 at 1:16 pm)possibletarian Wrote: How can it be god's will that not all perish and come to knowledge of truth, but at the same time knowingly create a world where his will cannot come into being.
This question has been answered multiple times. CL put it very succinctly:
Quote:As to your question, as I said: I would assume because He saw that ultimately the existence of humans would be a net good.
Your refusal to acknowledge and/or inability to understand the answers that have been given doesn't make the question unanswerable.
And you ability to call after the fact rationalizations and pulling assumptions out of the air and calling them answers is hilarious at times.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:26 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 2:27 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(November 7, 2017 at 2:21 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 1:51 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Here's what I believe:
God doesn't require it. We have a choice. But if we choose to turn away from Him in the next life, it'll leave us with nothing. Because we will no longer be physical bodies in a physical world with distractions and other things to do and to find fulfillment in. In the next life we are spirit and there is only God as fulfillment (though He is the ultimate and complete fulfillment), so if we reject that fulfillment we will have an extreme sense of emptiness. This emptiness causes extreme suffering, and that's the state of being in Hell.
God does not want that for us because He is inherently and completely good. That is why He wants us to accept Him and allow ourselves to be fulfilled by Him and His goodness and love. I think there are people who, upon dying and seeing God, will be either too horrible or too proud for that. These are the people who will find themselves in the state of being in Hell. It's their rejection of goodness and love, it's not God's punishment.
Here's a good explanation about Hell the way I think it actually is: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/h...gewanted=1
"Inherently and completely good"? I think most parents would consider eternally torturing (whether its flames or god's absence, if he's all he's cracked up to be, it would be torture) their kids for disobedience not good. And, if that kid is brought up in an orphanage with only rumors about parents and not knowing they even exist, and the parent shows up to punish them for not doing what they had wanted him to, that would not be considered good, IMO.
Using words like "love", "good" and "just" and applying them to the biblical god makes the way we use them as humans unrecognizable.
God wont force us to accept Him. Its the rejection that causes emptiness that causes suffering. I'm not sure why you would blame Him for that.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:29 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 2:32 pm by Harry Nevis.)
(November 7, 2017 at 2:24 pm)SteveII Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 1:16 pm)possibletarian Wrote: Given that god could not get wants without creating a world with what you call free will and a sinful world at the same time, we are not talking about someone who happen to come across circumstances beyond their control, but a god who can control everything.
I want to reply to this one point because it illustrates in one sentence that your main objection is founded on bad reasoning. If God created people with free will, then he has by definition, subordinated his ability to control everything. Free will entails a sinful world. Free will entails that God has subordinated control of everything. Your sentence does not make sense.
Why does free will entail a sinful world? Because god created sin. And, supposedly, he knows what the outcome will be. If he knows I will never become a believer, and knew before I was born, I have no control.
(November 7, 2017 at 2:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 2:21 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: "Inherently and completely good"? I think most parents would consider eternally torturing (whether its flames or god's absence, if he's all he's cracked up to be, it would be torture) their kids for disobedience not good. And, if that kid is brought up in an orphanage with only rumors about parents and not knowing they even exist, and the parent shows up to punish them for not doing what they had wanted him to, that would not be considered good, IMO.
Using words like "love", "good" and "just" and applying them to the biblical god makes the way we use them as humans unrecognizable.
God wont force us to accept Him. Its the rejection that causes emptiness that causes suffering. I'm not sure why you would blame Him for that.
I don't. If your god exists, he made the rules. He can do as he pleases. But to use the words loving, all-good, just, compassionate, etc. makes a mockery of these words.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:41 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 2:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 2:21 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: "Inherently and completely good"? I think most parents would consider eternally torturing (whether its flames or god's absence, if he's all he's cracked up to be, it would be torture) their kids for disobedience not good. And, if that kid is brought up in an orphanage with only rumors about parents and not knowing they even exist, and the parent shows up to punish them for not doing what they had wanted him to, that would not be considered good, IMO.
Using words like "love", "good" and "just" and applying them to the biblical god makes the way we use them as humans unrecognizable.
God wont force us to accept Him. Its the rejection that causes emptiness that causes suffering. I'm not sure why you would blame Him for that.
God could easily provide evidence for his existence, in fact god is supposed to know exactly what would convince me. God simply does not do so. Why not?
The usual christian claim is that god does not want to force me to worship him, he wants me to choose to worship him.
Unfortunately for god, that is not how it works. Suppose that god actually turned up and demonstrated that he did in fact exist. What then? Well, I would accept that he existed. Worship him? Not even remotely.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:47 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: God could easily provide evidence for his existence, in fact god is supposed to know exactly what would convince me. God simply does not do so. Why not?
The usual christian claim is that god does not want to force me to worship him, he wants me to choose to worship him.
Unfortunately for god, that is not how it works. Suppose that god actually turned up and demonstrated that he did in fact exist. What then? Well, I would accept that he existed. Worship him? Not even remotely.
The last part renders the part on evidence of existence irrelevant. And that's actually correct - as James notes, the demons believe in the existence of God, and shudder.
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