Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?

[The Grand Nudger]

That's a list of the articles of your faith...not evidence for the accuracy of the articles of your faith.

Conveniently, not only -can- items on that list be proven false, they have been. So....how is your faith rational, again, even by your own standards?

[Simon Moon]

The evidence that I believe that supports my belief (another opinion) is below:

1. Person of Jesus is compelling.

The fact that Jesus probably existed as a historical person, lends zero evidence for any supernatural claim about him.

After all, Muhammad existed. But I am sure you would not accept the claims that he talked to angels in a cave, or flew to heaven on a winged horse.

2. The NT describes actual events including the miracles, life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Just because the NT describes some historical events and people, does not mean it is accurate on any supernatural claims.

Again, the Koran describes real events and people. But I am sure you have no problems dismissing the supernatural claims.

3. God works in people's lives today--changing people on the inside as well as the occurrence of miracles.

How do you know that these events are a result of god?

I have a good friend that was addicted to drugs, living on the street, perpetrating petty crimes. He walked into a Hindu temple in Los Angeles one day, and claims to have communicated with a Hindu god. He quit drugs that day, and now owns a successful small business and has a great family. Was his experience an example of a Hindu god working in his life?

4. The natural theology arguments:
a. God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.
b. God is the best explanation of the origin of the universe.
c. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.
d. God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.
e. God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.

These have natural explanations. Those that don't, are currently unknown.

Making up answers, or using anwers others made up millenia ago, explains nothing.

Seems you are guilty of argument from ignorance here, or argument from personal incredulity. Either way, just because they may not be known at this time, lends zero credence for your claim that god exists.

Since you cannot 'prove' that any of these are falsely held beliefs, my conclusion (opinion) that God exists is rationale. The amount of evidence meets my personal threshold for proof that God exists.

Your personal threshold for proof, is set too low. You are playing basketball with an 8' rim, then bragging how great of a dunker you are.

None of the same type of 'evidence' you list above, would convince you that any other religion is true. You are guilty of special pleading.

[Godscreated]

No the point can't be moot, you made an accusation and need to stand behind it with some sort of proof, I take it this is a dodge though.
I never said that God didn't know what would happen, God is eternal (omnipresent) and has lived through all eternity, He has no beginning and no end and has always known all things. God being eternal means He has existed in all times and places all the time.

Well the point is moot for an atheist how could it be otherwise?
So if god always knows all things how could he not have created the world exactly as it was, if he knew humans would sin and the majority go to hell, and then went ahead and created them anyway, then that had to be his purpose. Unless you are are saying he both knew and was caught by surprise.
But your reply did not answer my question which was 'why did god allow people to be born after the fall'?

Just because atheist say it's a moot point for them doesn't mean it's a moot point, at best it means you have no interest. That then brings up the question of why are you asking questions of Christians?

The Bible contradicts your assessment of God. God says He desires that no man suffer eternal punishment. God created a perfect world and man corrupted it, the perfect world was God's will the corruption was man's will which God allowed to prove love will overcome the most hideous sin.
I have sufficiently answered that question, it's your fault that you do not accept it. 

I know the verse quite well and understand it's meaning and the way you used it in your last post made no sense, it wasn't relevant to my post. By the way you posted the wrong verses.

Of course it's relevant, isn't it what Christians use all the time when they come across questions either they cannot or are not comfortable answering, if you don't know why not simply say so instead of a hand wave of 'god knows best' ?

Some Christians may use it to explain what they have yet to understand, I use it when it's not something revealed of God and in that case it is an appropriate answer. I have answered all your questions because you have asked none that I wasn't able to answer.

Of coarse we do, we understand it's meaning and it's truth. I did not say I knew God's entire purpose and if you would learn to comprehend what you read you would have known this. I didn't use that verse nor insinuate it, you are the one who brought it up completely out of context of the discussion.

Fair enough you don't know all of gods purpose.

I hope you can remember this.

God wants to show all that love is greater than sin and without the continuation of the creation that wouldn't be possible.

And the net result is the majority of people who have ever lived going to hell to suffer for eternity, that makes no sense at all.

  It makes perfect sense, people like you reject the love God has for you, so hell is the destination for rejection, you choose it and God gives you your choice.

Why does it make sense to carry on creating people (giving them life or a soul at birth) if you know they are going to suffer for eternity ?, this must be his purpose if he knows already, you think that is logical ?

The logic of this is simple, God doesn't choose for people He leaves it up to them. True God has seen men's choices, He didn't make those choices for us He saw what we would choose, this isn't by any stretch of the imagination predestination, it's simple what God observed happening. Did you know that God has given those who reject Christ the opportunity to come to know Christ and accept Him as savior, that is the love God has for the lost. You might call that illogical, I say it's completely logical because I know part of God's plan.

Again I study the Bible, I'm not like you who goes around spouting what you want to be true.

I don't think any of it is true, well regarding spiritual claims that is, so it's up to you if you are making a claim to provide a sound reason to believe, but again that does not answer my question.

I've answer all your questions so I have no idea what you are speaking of. Just like you do not want to accept my answers to some of your questions you do not accept the truth of the scriptures and your non-acceptance in no way negates my answers nor the scriptures.

You're not interested in why I believe, if you were you would ask relevant questions instead of criticizing what Christians write. You don't listen you're here to jabber your jaw like the rest of the atheist here.

Actually I am very interested why you believe, to me you may as well believe in Peppa Pig. The creations story of the fall is so obviously made up. Having said that I used to be a Christian so I know what it's like to have your head full of this nonsense and have to go through excruciating mental gymnasts to make everything align with what I believed.

No you're not or you wouldn't have referred to some pig. The creation story is valid to many of millions around the world, yet you believe everyone shouldn't find it believable just because you can't. That's not the fault of Christians that fault belongs to you and your lack of faith. I have never done as you say mental gymnastics I do not have to I search for the truth, finding that there are no contradictions in the scriptures and that everything fits well together.
You have the same problem all non believers have, you want to believe what you want out of the Bible instead of believing what the Bible says and then searching to find that what it says is true.

Me hang on, it's you who needs to hang on I think this conversations going to fast for you. Slow down, read and comprehend what is being said to you, please. It gets tiring repeating what's already been plainly said. I stated I know some of what God's plans are, because I'm part of them, also, I take Isaiah 55:8-9. I study the Bible to understand what God will reveal to me.

 

Yes but how do you distinguish delusion from reality? many people from many religions make similar claims as you do.
It still does not answer my question though.

The problem with all the other religions, they have no god. God has said there are no other gods, I am the only real God. Would you please state what question you've asked that hasn't been answered and I'll answer it, but if it's the one i'm thinking of I've already answered it.

I said we can't know it all, you are a typical atheist who has no idea what you are talking about.

On what ?

God.

You think you are smart and logical but you show Christians what you do not know and that is a tremendous amount.

Actually I was a Christian for many years, but have since become untangled from religious thought and belief, it really is like coming into the light.

No you just thought you were a Christian, if you had truly believed in who Christ is you wouldn't change your mind. God has said that those who believe they have the light without me actually have the darkness as their companion.

You've yet to ask a relevant question and you seem to be enjoying making fun of God, beware.

Then if my post wasn't relevant why then did you attempt to answer it ?
How can you make fun of a non existent god ? No if I am making fun, it's because of the metal gymnastics that theists pull
Oh and I have no fear of non existent gods or of you.

I was referring to questions after your original post, I did find your original posted question relevant, it's why I answered it.
You have not found me using any mental gymnastics and you never will. Just because you can't accept God doesn't mean He is not real, what you state is an opinion and nothing more.
I'm no threat to you and do not pretend to be however God is far different and has the power and right to punish even on this earth.

He is showing His love is greater that sin to all His creation, at the time of judgement no one will have an argument against Him.
Not hardly, God didn't cause the pain and suffering, Adam and Eve got it started and sinful man has continued till this very day.

Of course god caused it, didn't he throw them out of the garden, and curse them with death for doing what he knew they would do anyway, yet still creating them ? 
And this is just the point of the original post, if god knew this would happen, then why make it that way?
If it took him by surprise then why not simply stop others being born, given that Christians believe souls are created at birth.

You are using God's omnis like you accuse Christians of using Isaiah 55:8-9. You can't understand God so you use your interpretation of God based on God's omnis, that is a double standard.

God put them out of the Garden of Eden, for a sin and sin brought the death God told them that would come upon them if they disobeyed. They understood exactly what God had told them that's why they were hiding like children when they do what they know is wrong. Do you even know one of the other reasons God put them out of the Garden?

I'm going to try and explain this again but it is getting old. God did not create Adam and Eve to sin. God created a perfect world and we know that they lived in the Garden for some amount of time by other scriptures. They chose to sin and corrupt the creation and yes God knew this would happen because He was there when it happened even before He created this world. That's why God is eternal. God wanted a relationship with men all down through the ages and to give His love to all men, this was His plan. There was no different scenario, it wouldn't matter who the first man or woman was, the result would have been the same. You as all the other atheist want to believe there could have many different outcomes, no there couldn't have been. God created all the universe and allows it to go on down the only path it would have taken. Hey you do not know but God does, some day you may change your mind and actually come to know Christ as your savior, the choice will be all your's.

God has never been caught by surprise, He can't He is eternal. I've just explained above why the creation went on.

You keep saying the same thing and you have received answers yet you will not listen,

Oh I'm all ears, I'm just waiting for a rational answer.

No, you are waiting for only the answer you have already assumed, sorry but I'm giving you the truth and the truth is something that can't be change because it has already been established.

you continue to ignore what is being said. Let me put it to you this way, it's God's plan not yours,

 

Bingo, here we go god's mysterious plan

You have taken what I said out of context and you know you have, it's why you wouldn't post my entire statement. You know you can't change a thing and God has told us we are not able, too. We can freely make decisions for our lives but we can not change God's ultimate plan and that is the redemption of all those who choose Christ for who He is.

he can let in go as he desires because it is His plan, no one can stop it and no one has the right to criticize His plan because no one can duplicate it, it all belongs to Him,

 

Yes that's why we ask questions about why people believe such stuff

It's been my experience with atheist that they ask questions to get answers to make fun of, few have any interest in what's said nor the truth behind it. I take very little of what atheist say seriously, I've been here long enough to have learned what most are looking for from Christians.

He is eternal and you can't seem to understand what it means that God is eternal. He is the only being who will ever be eternal.

Oh I understand what eternal is, I just don't believe in a god

 I do not believe you have any idea what eternal is, please give me an explanation of eternal, not a definition.

People are not innocent because you say so, so you need to forget this,

 

Of course not, but i was not claiming innocence for myself, just that an as yet un-created soul which  has absolutely no sin, the question I was asking is why did god bring them into a sinful world when he knew they would suffer for eternity. I didn't ask why did Adam and Eve suffered (even though i think it's a fairy tale) , I asked why god allowed others to be born after the fall.

Not all will a great many people will be spending an eternal life (this eternal is different than God's eternal) with God enjoying all He has for us through the rest of eternity. God has allowed the creation to continue for those who will accept Him as their savior and be a part of His eternal love.

God says all are guilty of sin and deserve to die. The offenses (sins) are against the Holy and Righteous God who created all things and in that a payment is due, unless you come to know Christ for who He is.

Did you hear the angels singing when you wrote that?
I already know Christ for who he is, a mythical character in one of many holy books

You are spiritually dead, there's no chance for you to hear the angels of heaven singing. The other angels have nothing to sing about they are already condemned and have no hope of reconciliation. Since you are making a positive claim about Christ you need to show proof of your claim. 

God has never be dependent on anything nor anyone, He was living an eternity before creation without anyone else anywhere. We know this from the Bible, you would too if you would just read it instead of spouting what you hear others saying.

This is where you show your lack of biblical knowledge and you should at least become familiar with the basics before trying to argue against God and His word.

Okey dokey

From now own I expect reasonable questions from the scriptures and not this run around junk you keep throwing out.

God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit are all the same God revealed in three persons, yes it's possible for God.

Yes so you say another fantasy

I know for a fact what I posted above is true, if you do not change you will find out at your death what I already know, by then for you it will be to late.

The angels were created during the creation week, when we do not know but Bible study reveals this to us.

Where?

 

God said before creation there was no one but Him and that He was complete in Himself, in other words He needed no one else. If you want to know where you need to do some Bible study, I'm not here to do your homework for you.

God didn't need any companionship He was totally satisfied with who He is and would have enjoyed eternity without us or the angels. God did not create fallible man, God created the perfect man and woman all others have been conceived through man and woman, it is part of God's plan. I'm not even sure how you got to God needing companionship. Man was created for God to love and to love God, for a relationship with Him so we could know and enjoy the wonders of God.

Okay lets drop the god needing companionship bit then and just accept that god created humanity simply because he did, but that leaves us with even a worse scenario he create being he knew would not obey him, and many would spend eternity in hell suffering.. for what purpose ?

The purpose is for those who will accept Him as savior and lord. Everyone who has heard of Christ has a chance to make that decision. Just because God knew what everyone would decide doesn't in any way mean He manipulated anyone's choice.
 

What makes you thing Adam and Eve were perfect? they sinned for their own selfish reasons, well according to the bible, the question is why did god allow that then to continue?

The Bible says they were perfect, it says the entire creation was perfect. God doesn't lie actually God can't lie. How many times do you need the same answer to the same question, I believe I stated why quite plainly.

To say that it was to enjoy the wonders of god, well frankly god isn't all that wonderful after all, his purpose and plan was for the majority to not enjoy his wondrous presence.

God is the most wonderful being, holy, perfect, righteous and trustworthy to name a few things.  As I explained earlier God desires no one to parish, and in that He didn't plan for anyone to perish. Those who perish will have chosen their own fate. Why is it that I have to repeat all this again and again, what I'm saying want change it's truth from God.

I was speaking of personal suffering. God doesn't promise Christians that life will go smooth for us, we will suffer through those things you mentioned, the difference is that God will be with Christians to bring them peace, understanding and help.

Help with what ? tell that to the Christians of Africa whose children die daily from starvation and disease despite prayers, almost as if.. as if.. there is no god at all

You are blaming God for something He has not done. The responsibility for feeding the hungry belongs to man, we are the ones who have cause such disasters. We spend billions every year on space science that will not make a difference to mankind ever, all that money could be used to help the starving and thirsty. Our first responsibility is to our fellow man, not science. We have long ago learned how to produce enough food to feed the world, yet we do not do it nor do we spend the money to distribute what foods we do produce to the worlds starving children. Stop blaming God for what is our responsibility to our own kind. We do not care about our fellow man or these situations would no be. When I say we I'm referring to mankind in general. The Christian church as a whole does more to feed the starving, bring medicine to the sick and help dig wells for those in need of good water. God is at work for these people through His people, because most the rest of the world has turned their backs on these people, out of sight out of mind. Now I'm not saying there are no secular people doing good work for these people, they are just few compared to the Christians.

We are to also be there for those who are suffering through all things, unfortunately most atheist despise Christians so much they will not accept our help, kinda' dumb if you ask me.

What help ?

Physical help in disasters, you wouldn't believe the number of atheist here who say that Christians can just keep their help if they want to also speak about God and the comfort for the heart He can bring. Seems to me if we do all that work we have a right to present the God who lead us to their needs, we give the money to purchase what they may need, we work many many hours gathering and preparing to help all peoples, yet there are hard heads who thinks it's wrong for us to show God to them through our work and speech. all those kinda' people should just refuse to take the help from the hard working and caring Christians and forge out on their own, they do not deserve the hospitality of those who have come to help. A great man in my life who worked to bring food and medicine to the people of Haiti told me we must first feed them and give them medicine to help heal their physical bodies and then give them the spiritual word that can change their lives. This is the help I was referring too.

GC

[Astreja]

And why should we take the author(s) of Romans, Galatians and Ephesians seriously?

Because OP is apparently about the god of the bible, and those are books in the bible.

I mean, seriously, are you that fucking stupid?

The passages you reference are a single author who is considered an authority in Christianity but not in Judaism.  Got anything from, say, the Pentateuch?

[Nay_Sayer]

Atreja, How'd you survive not being crushed by the previous giant wall of text?

[possibletarian]

Given that god could not get wants without creating a world with what you call free will and a sinful world at the same time, we are not talking about someone who happen to come across circumstances beyond their control, but a god who can control everything.

I want to reply to this one point because it illustrates in one sentence that your main objection is founded on bad reasoning. If God created people with free will, then he has by definition, subordinated his ability to control everything. Free will entails a sinful world. Free will entails that God has subordinated control of everything. Your sentence does not make sense.

What is 'free will' and how do you define it and why does it entail a sinful world ?
Was it created by your god in the full knowledge of what it would bring about.. or not ?

---

Just because atheist say it's a moot point for them doesn't mean it's a moot point, at best it means you have no interest. That then brings up the question of why are you asking questions of Christians?

Well of course it's moot, when an atheist ask a Christian a question about their particular god, it's always in the hypothetical, so for the atheist it's always a hypothetical answer. Unfortunately the bible does not qualify as either truth or a rational answer.

The Bible contradicts your assessment of God. God says He desires that no man suffer eternal punishment. God created a perfect world and man corrupted it, the perfect world was God's will the corruption was man's will which God allowed to prove love will overcome the most hideous sin.
I have sufficiently answered that question, it's your fault that you do not accept it. 

Of course the bible contradicts an atheists non belief in god, I would have thought this to be obvious, but that does not answer my question at all.
Clearly your god is incapable of matching his wishes to a creation.

Some Christians may use it to explain what they have yet to understand, I use it when it's not something revealed of God and in that case it is an appropriate answer. I have answered all your questions because you have asked none that I wasn't able to answer.

Yes but not every answer is appropriate meaningful, if you want to be understood you have to fulfil both conditions, I believe that you believe you have given a good answer if that helps.

that is the love God has for the lost. You might call that illogical, I say it's completely logical because I know part of God's plan.

Again I study the Bible, I'm not like you who goes around spouting what you want to be true.


I've answer all your questions so I have no idea what you are speaking of. Just like you do not want to accept my answers to some of your questions you do not accept the truth of the scriptures and your non-acceptance in no way negates my answers nor the scriptures.

You're not interested in why I believe, if you were you would ask relevant questions instead of criticizing what Christians write. You don't listen you're here to jabber your jaw like the rest of the atheist here.

No you're not or you wouldn't have referred to some pig. The creation story is valid to many of millions around the world, yet you believe everyone shouldn't find it believable just because you can't. That's not the fault of Christians that fault belongs to you and your lack of faith. I have never done as you say mental gymnastics I do not have to I search for the truth, finding that there are no contradictions in the scriptures and that everything fits well together.

You have the same problem all non believers have, you want to believe what you want out of the Bible instead of believing what the Bible says and then searching to find that what it says is true.

The problem with all the other religions, they have no god. God has said there are no other gods, I am the only real God. Would you please state what question you've asked that hasn't been answered and I'll answer it, but if it's the one i'm thinking of I've already answered it.

I said we can't know it all, you are a typical atheist who has no idea what you are talking about.


You think you are smart and logical but you show Christians what you do not know and that is a tremendous amount.

No you just thought you were a Christian, if you had truly believed in who Christ is you wouldn't change your mind. God has said that those who believe they have the light without me actually have the darkness as their companion.

You've yet to ask a relevant question and you seem to be enjoying making fun of God, beware.



I was referring to questions after your original post, I did find your original posted question relevant, it's why I answered it.
You have not found me using any mental gymnastics and you never will. Just because you can't accept God doesn't mean He is not real, what you state is an opinion and nothing more.
I'm no threat to you and do not pretend to be however God is far different and has the power and right to punish even on this earth.

You are using God's omnis like you accuse Christians of using Isaiah 55:8-9. You can't understand God so you use your interpretation of God based on God's omnis, that is a double standard.

God put them out of the Garden of Eden, for a sin and sin brought the death God told them that would come upon them if they disobeyed. They understood exactly what God had told them that's why they were hiding like children when they do what they know is wrong. Do you even know one of the other reasons God put them out of the Garden?

I'm going to try and explain this again but it is getting old. God did not create Adam and Eve to sin. God created a perfect world and we know that they lived in the Garden for some amount of time by other scriptures. They chose to sin and corrupt the creation and yes God knew this would happen because He was there when it happened even before He created this world. That's why God is eternal. God wanted a relationship with men all down through the ages and to give His love to all men, this was His plan. There was no different scenario, it wouldn't matter who the first man or woman was, the result would have been the same. You as all the other atheist want to believe there could have many different outcomes, no there couldn't have been. God created all the universe and allows it to go on down the only path it would have taken. Hey you do not know but God does, some day you may change your mind and actually come to know Christ as your savior, the choice will be all your's.

God has never been caught by surprise, He can't He is eternal. I've just explained above why the creation went on.

You keep saying the same thing and you have received answers yet you will not listen,

No, you are waiting for only the answer you have already assumed, sorry but I'm giving you the truth and the truth is something that can't be change because it has already been established.


you continue to ignore what is being said. Let me put it to you this way, it's God's plan not yours,

It's been my experience with atheist that they ask questions to get answers to make fun of, few have any interest in what's said nor the truth behind it. I take very little of what atheist say seriously, I've been here long enough to have learned what most are looking for from Christians.

He is eternal and you can't seem to understand what it means that God is eternal. He is the only being who will ever be eternal.

I do not believe you have any idea what eternal is, please give me an explanation of eternal, not a definition.

People are not innocent because you say so, so you need to forget this,

God says all are guilty of sin and deserve to die. The offenses (sins) are against the Holy and Righteous God who created all things and in that a payment is due, unless you come to know Christ for who He is.

You are spiritually dead, there's no chance for you to hear the angels of heaven singing. The other angels have nothing to sing about they are already condemned and have no hope of reconciliation. Since you are making a positive claim about Christ you need to show proof of your claim. 

God has never be dependent on anything nor anyone, He was living an eternity before creation without anyone else anywhere. We know this from the Bible, you would too if you would just read it instead of spouting what you hear others saying.

This is where you show your lack of biblical knowledge and you should at least become familiar with the basics before trying to argue against God and His word.

From now own I expect reasonable questions from the scriptures and not this run around junk you keep throwing out.

God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit are all the same God revealed in three persons, yes it's possible for God.

I know for a fact what I posted above is true, if you do not change you will find out at your death what I already know, by then for you it will be to late.

The angels were created during the creation week, when we do not know but Bible study reveals this to us.

God said before creation there was no one but Him and that He was complete in Himself, in other words He needed no one else. If you want to know where you need to do some Bible study, I'm not here to do your homework for you.

God didn't need any companionship He was totally satisfied with who He is and would have enjoyed eternity without us or the angels. God did not create fallible man, God created the perfect man and woman all others have been conceived through man and woman, it is part of God's plan. I'm not even sure how you got to God needing companionship. Man was created for God to love and to love God, for a relationship with Him so we could know and enjoy the wonders of God.

The purpose is for those who will accept Him as savior and lord. Everyone who has heard of Christ has a chance to make that decision. Just because God knew what everyone would decide doesn't in any way mean He manipulated anyone's choice.
 
The Bible says they were perfect, it says the entire creation was perfect. God doesn't lie actually God can't lie. How many times do you need the same answer to the same question, I believe I stated why quite plainly.

God is the most wonderful being, holy, perfect, righteous and trustworthy to name a few things.  As I explained earlier God desires no one to parish, and in that He didn't plan for anyone to perish. Those who perish will have chosen their own fate. Why is it that I have to repeat all this again and again, what I'm saying want change it's truth from God.

I was speaking of personal suffering. God doesn't promise Christians that life will go smooth for us, we will suffer through those things you mentioned, the difference is that God will be with Christians to bring them peace, understanding and help.

I lumped them in one to save others scrolling down the whole list.
Lets put the cries of god's vengeance and wrath, and my failing to understand anything i or you say to one side a moment, I will accept all your answers if you can prove them to be true, how's that for a deal

[Astreja]

Astreja, How'd you survive not being crushed by the previous giant wall of text?

I *type* giant walls of text for a living.  (holds up 20-sided die) And made my saving throw.

[Edwardo Piet]

Second, from  our POV we have eternity, so even if time here is wasted, it's not much of a loss. You guys only have this one life. It's sad actually.

Sad but true. Enjoy your blissful ignorance because you only have this one life too.

[possibletarian]

You are blaming God for something He has not done. The responsibility for feeding the hungry belongs to man, we are the ones who have cause such disasters. We spend billions every year on space science that will not make a difference to mankind ever, all that money could be used to help the starving and thirsty. Our first responsibility is to our fellow man, not science. We have long ago learned how to produce enough food to feed the world, yet we do not do it nor do we spend the money to distribute what foods we do produce to the worlds starving children. Stop blaming God for what is our responsibility to our own kind. We do not care about our fellow man or these situations would no be. When I say we I'm referring to mankind in general. The Christian church as a whole does more to feed the starving, bring medicine to the sick and help dig wells for those in need of good water. God is at work for these people through His people, because most the rest of the world has turned their backs on these people, out of sight out of mind. Now I'm not saying there are no secular people doing good work for these people, they are just few compared to the Christians.

Physical help in disasters, you wouldn't believe the number of atheist here who say that Christians can just keep their help if they want to also speak about God and the comfort for the heart He can bring. Seems to me if we do all that work we have a right to present the God who lead us to their needs, we give the money to purchase what they may need, we work many many hours gathering and preparing to help all peoples, yet there are hard heads who thinks it's wrong for us to show God to them through our work and speech. all those kinda' people should just refuse to take the help from the hard working and caring Christians and forge out on their own, they do not deserve the hospitality of those who have come to help. A great man in my life who worked to bring food and medicine to the people of Haiti told me we must first feed them and give them medicine to help heal their physical bodies and then give them the spiritual word that can change their lives. This is the help I was referring too.

GC

I thought i would reply to this separately as this seems to be a genuine concern of yours and the one i relate to more closely.

I would agree that as humans we ought to work together to stop people starving and suffering, and as someone who does some charity work do agree with you on some points.

While it is true that there are many Christian charities out in countries helping, they mainly get their funding from the general public, rather than directly from other Christians from Christian Aid, down to such things as foodbanks which in my home city their are many, but again the bulk of the food comes via collections from the general public not from churches, though of course some of those could be Christians or Muslims also. The point being that humans should work together regardless of race, religion or creed.

For instance the Foodbank i help out has about 15 helpers on the days it is open, only three of those are from the local church 5 are atheists/agnostic a Muslim, a Wiccan, and the rest haven't defined what they believe, but they all strive to one goal.

Many of the best known charities or organisations are secular in nature and are world leaders, for instance.

Medecins Sans Frontieres
Amnesty International
UNICEF
OXFAM
WaterAid

I think you are exaggerating when you say Christians spend billions and then paint a picture of many turning them down simply because, frankly if my kids were starving I simply wouldn't care, and i doubt many on here would if they were really faced with starvation. have you any real statistics to show me ?

[The Grand Nudger]

Baked or boiled, really, is the only question magic book leaves unanswered. Boiled is my guess, get the starches out into a broth.