*trigger warning* What if atheism's not all it seems?

[GUBU]

<snipping the valueless nonsense>

Get back to me when you've something to add to the discussion, boy.

Oh and PS, being kudosed by CL is essentially an indicator the last half hour you spent typing was a waste of time.

[Catholic_Lady]

<snipping the valueless nonsense>

Get back to me when you've something to add to the discussion, boy.

Oh and PS, being kudosed by CL is essentially an indicator the last half hour you spent typing was a waste of time.

Aww, there you are! It's been a while since you've done this cute little thing where you reference me on a thread as a way to insult me. Yes, I've noticed. I see your boner for me is still strong!

[downbeatplumb]

Get back to me when you've something to add to the discussion, boy.

Oh and PS, being kudosed by CL is essentially an indicator the last half hour you spent typing was a waste of time.

Aww, there you are! It's been a while since you've done this cute little thing where you reference me on a thread as a way to insult me. Yes, I've noticed. I see your boner for me is still strong!

Well you are cute.

[henryp]

I don't get the sense that he sees it as 0% chance. From what i can see, it seems he feels there's a pretty equal 50/50 chance of God existing and so he'd rather take the optimistic approach.

Personally for myself, I'm not an optimistic person. Or a pessimistic one for that matter. I feel I'm pretty realistic. I won't hope for something to be true unless I feel there is very good chance that it is.

As I said in another thread, I do find atheism the least likely scenario. If I wasn't Christian I would be a deist because to me, it seems logical that there would be more out there besides the physical. Though that's a conversation for another thread.

I was just going by his OP, where he says he was a staunch atheist, and then said being an atheist stinks, and the religion reality is much better.  Which is fine, but if he were staunch, I assume that means he was fairly sure there wasn't a God, and then it sounds like he was swayed because things would be nicer if there were a God. 

I'll start that another thread sometime.

[KevinM1]

"Tell me exactly how god gives the universe greater meaning."

It give the universe greater meaning because if it were to exist it would mean the following: We may one day be reunited with our family members and friends who have passed on;

And? Would you want to exist with them for eternity? Eternity is a very long time....

there will be justice and judgments for both the good and bad;

And from what authority will this judgement come from? One that is worthy of following? One that is valid? And what manner of punishment for the bad?

we are each of value, indispensable, and worthy of love;

How does being an atheist preclude any of that (hint: it doesn't).

and the world was created with some greater purpose in mind rather than just from a sheer cold happenstance

I find sheer 'cold' happenstance to be far more amazing than the idea that all of this was purpose built. Because if it was, the creator was pretty shitty in its design, and it calls into question everything from its power, to its intelligence, to its morality.

to name just a few. On the contrary, and if you disagree please provide a solid argument, nothing more than the following can be extrapolated from an atheistic work view: we're all just animals who have no real significance in this world, we are all going to die and never return, nothing we ever do will ever really have any lasting meaning, and the world is built on nothing more than cold, random forces.

Ah, the old "all you're left with is nihilism, which is depressing" canard. Nihilism is a starting point, not an end point. It means we can create our own significance and meaning from an empty canvas.

Again, you were a shitty atheist. Not because we disagree, but because you stopped at the halfway mark. My attitude doesn't stem just from confidence in my beliefs, but in the fact that even if there is a god, it's had as much of an impact on my daily life as nothing at all. I don't need a god, even if there is one.

[Edwardo Piet]

You're all so cute and loveable right now.

Atheism is exactly what it seems and it has to be. I don't think you are conveying quite what you are trying to convey.

[Whateverist]

Hypothetically, if all the shortcomings of atheism were conceded.  It's just, in reality, a lawless world devoid of any purpose.  What makes that untrue?  It's not great.  A nice God and meaning and eternal life seems better.  But do you really believe in God, or do you feel you have to believe in God because the alternative is really bad.   

In that way, religion reminds me a bit of cancer patients.  The Doc says "You've got a 25% chance of survival."  And the patient and their family always says "We're going to beat this thing!"  Because the alternative is dying.  And even though they know that's more likely, they prefer to believe the positive result is going to happen.  But with God, it's more of a 0% chance of survival, and religious folks still say "We're going to beat this thing!" anyways.

For some people, atheism is a bit like seeing how hotdogs are made.  And after they see it, they say "Gross, I'm going back to not knowing how hotdogs are made."   That's sort of the vibe your OP gives off.

I don't get the sense that he sees it as 0% chance. From what i can see, it seems he feels there's a pretty equal 50/50 chance of God existing and so he'd rather take the optimistic approach.

Personally for myself, I'm not an optimistic person. Or a pessimistic one for that matter. I feel I'm pretty realistic. I won't hope for something to be true unless I feel there is very good chance that it is.

As I said in another thread, I do find atheism the least likely scenario. If I wasn't Christian I would be a deist because to me, it seems logical that there would be more out there besides the physical. Though that's a conversation for another thread.

It seems obvious to me too.  Over and above the physical there is all that goes on in my mind, much of which is mysterious as hell.  Pretty sure that is where you'll find all the gods there ever were or will be.  But admittedly, I can't know that. (It's a mystery after all.)

[GUBU]

.

Sorry, I didn't hear you over the sound all that empty air sloshing around between your ears.

Anyway look at your kudos history, there's two types of post you kudos, empty apologetics, and Wooters being a neo-nazi shithead. Doesn't say much for your intelligence or your moral integrity.

[pocaracas]

As someone once said...
I'd like to believe as many true things as possible and disbelieve as many false things as possible.

As it stands, the requirement of belief that surrounds theism is a strong hint that it's a false thing.
I don't care about the warm fuzzy feelings you can have when you think about your life going on forever, alongside your close relatives and loved ones.... and the ones you love that never loved you back...
I don't care about having whatever meaning that brings.
I don't care about the easy answer to the origin of the Universe.

I care about knowing what is really out there. How things work for real... to the best of our ability.

When knowledge of the existence of an afterlife, or a benevolent overseer, or of a creator entity comes by, then I'll accept it. Until then, it's indistinguishable from fiction.

But you do your thing, Zebra, and I'll do mine.
Eventually, we die and it no longer matters.

[Amarok]

It give the universe greater meaning because if it were to exist it would mean the following: We may one day be reunited with our family members and friends who have passed on;

And that would make the universe meningful because ? I don't need some afterlife to appreiate the people i love i can do that now . And if i did not appreiate them in life what makes me think i would after death . 

 There will be justice and judgments for both the good and bad

;

Already a moral realist so this already exists . But why should their be judgement? To what ends? And why judgement X rather then Y ? None of this is answered 

we are each of value, indispensable, and worthy of love;

Valued by whom ? And by what? Why are we indispensable ? Why should a god love us?Worthy by what and why should we care?

and the world was created with some greater purpose in mind rather than just from a sheer cold happenstance

Why should one care if some other being has decided the purpose of the universe ? 

atheistic work view: we're all just animals who have no real significance in this world, we are all going to die and never return, nothing we ever do will ever really have any lasting meaning, and the world is built on nothing more than cold, random forces.

Funny how most atheists disagree with this view . But lets break this down a little .Yup we all die . Why should that bother anyone? Why focus on death rather then life ? Why should one wish to return ? for what ends? Next your an animal by definition no matter if their is a god . I see nothing wrong with this would it be better if you were a rock ? This notion of demeaning being an animal also seems strange . Why should i care for eternity if i'll never exprience this? Does this mean i can't try and change things ? The answer is no . Can it have a positive impact ? Yes does that impact have to be eternal ? i don't see why? Why should my actions have eternity in mind ?. And no the universe is built on consistently observed natural consistencies thus they are not random .The opposite of unintended is not random  . Why agency behind them should make them any more or less interesting or have impact ? This line of thinking seems off.

---

However I do agree with you that some atheist people do seem to be a bit too preoccupied and even upset about other people believing. People like that do indeed remind me of the more extreme religious folks That try to force their beliefs down your throat through name calling and mockery. Two sides of the same coin with these type of people, so I agree with you there.

Beliefs have impacts . And some idea's are worth mocking . Lastly false equivalency

 Ha, so there are levels of goodness and properness for an atheist and how they conduct themselves? Sounds suspiciously like other world views that you seem to disagree with.

No but you can be an ignorant atheist . It's not a question of conduct but knowledge . Having seen your writing thus far i'm less then impressed. As for the idea that goodness and properness are excluded by not believing in god . This is simply a assertion . 

As for the good and bad concept existing: Because we still live in a society which has religious concepts entrenched in our culture, we don't see that good and bad are concepts which at a fundamental level were heavily influenced by religion. Things like helping those who are needy and putting others before ourselves. And even though religion is starting to die, these parts of it have still survived even though we now often mistakenly think they are nothing do with religion. Imagine no religion at all and just a cold Darwinian style society which never had religion - how do you define good and bad?

Nope these concepts were idea's religion adopted not idea's religion invented. And it's maintenance has nothing to do with religion . I'm not sure what you mean by a Darwinian society ? or how you imagine it relates to a notion of prescriptive secular meta ethics . But as i have said  i'm not counting on a quality definition . Nor is an appeal to reductionist Darwinism(if your saying what i think your saying ) relevant to the existence of moral prescriptions.