Let's get this religion thing sorted...

[thesummerqueen]

TSQ,

Like I said earlier, there is much chaff in that post, but I do feel that some kind of secular temple or community center could help people to see that we don't need to pretend to believe in god to connect with society.

Yup. Although I'm halvsies on whether many people stay for community and whether they stay because they really do believe. I guess we have to somehow sort that out. If it's the former, putting up a community center will do religion a lot of harm. If the latter...well, we'd need a multiple pronged approach.

[Rhizomorph13]

Whatever was set up would have to compete for market share and be branded to attract people to the "service" so at first it would be very hard to get people to sign on. Atheism is not accepted and most people have figured out that secular humanism is pretty much the same thing so I'm betting that if I were to start such an organization as I have talked about in the past, the biggest concern would be from pissed off people trying to burn the place down! This has happened with porn shops and planned parenthood clinics, so birthing a focal point for freethinkers could yeild some very unpleasent results.

Oregon is a very liberal place but there is a lunatic fringe that can make things icky for people with different ideas.

[Ace Otana]

Tolerance, many lack it.

[thesummerqueen]

I was surprised when even my hometown Manassas went bizarro over an "adult toy shop" going into the older part of the city - it's so tastefully decorated that from the outside you would think it's a tea room! But Fox went crazy anyway...

[Welsh cake]

Like or dislike the elusive idea? I think having legitimate multiple choice questions in your poll is a better idea.

[Godnose]

I know it seems like we're all pissing in your cheerios (though I promise we're not all bad) so I hope you realize I'm not trying to be especially bitchy or anything - I just want to point out a few flaws in the ideas you have that I see. I realize from your comments in your first thread that it's not as easy for everyone and that any of my opinions come from my own experience and those of my friends. Just getting that out of the way.

Appreciated. And you know, I do realise I can be a bit of a prima donna or whatever ... demanding attention and stuff. But time's slowly running out for me and I'm sh1tting myself regarding the way the world's gonna be for my grandkids. Anyway...

I realize that others may not have the luxury, but here in Charlotte there is an area specific forum who meets up on a regular basis to do social functions, to do volunteer and charity work, etc. They're incredibly welcoming.

Sounds great. If there's anyone in your group who would be interested to give me any guidelines on the workings of the group I'd be dead interested. If you OK that in principle or PM me I could PM you with an email address or dropbox or something. My other half is originally from approx. the same latitude as you, btw - Arizona.

I know you don't like the reception you received on this forum, but my personal experience is that before you try to ask the hard questions of any group you should first establish a little cred.

Yeah I know the theory but in practice I've always found that when I lay low I stay low. So I tend to hit the ground running in the hope that I might strike a few sparks with the friction, and see if anything catches. Which it occasionally does. Can be a bit painful though...

The core group of us are familiar with each other and quite loving - and also quite welcoming to new comers, as you will see from just about every introductory post. As an atheist, I'm sure you're at least somewhat familiar with the habit of people trolling our forums and virtual hang outs. It makes us suspicious.

You mean people like religious zealots trying to zap you all with the hell thing, or whatever? "Your eternal soul will burn in agony for ever, you vile blasphemer" or whatever? I can imagine!

Now, we've all heard the line that "atheists have nothing in common" other than the fact that we don't believe in gods.

Yeah. But when you think about it, given the power and the commonplace of religions over the millennia, that's actually quite a big thing to have in common

The thing about religions, no matter how many permutations they have, is that they are all under one major heading, following the message and supernatural ideas you mentioned. Atheists don't have that.

Absolutely. I mean, the three biguns are all linked, they all think they worship the same god, whether its called Yahweh, Allah or Jehovah. That's part of the power, because it makes it all the more convincing to the susceptible. I mean. there is a kind of screwy logic to it all, it's like a fantastic computer game or something, a kind of "Dungeons and Dragons" only played out over millennia.

However, isn't it also true that Atheism itself also goes back a pretty long way, the ancient Greeks anyway, weren't some of them atheist?

Some of us might have similar interests, but the best you could hope for is a community center that catered to a diverse group.

That would be something! But what are the numbers to make a viable community centre? I'd guess not far short of a thousand folk over all. With a hard core of 50+. That would take some building up to.

If you want something more like a church with the organizing power of a belief system, atheists would have to congregate with their particular philosophical systems. I know there is actually a humanistic Jewish "movement" that meets up, but my problem is that on Friday nights I'd rather be shooting the shit about agriculture and smartassery with Rhythm than discussing Jewish history with a bunch of other people - even if they share my beliefs. Because there's no "god" expecting me to meet up with anyone and listen to his message, I'm not even interested in hearing philosophical points expounded on. I could do that on a podcast and save the gas money. I understand that this is just me.

But suppose there was say a sing-along, something like "A Thought for the Day", maybe a bit of local news, wedding announcements, births and deaths, stuff like that, as well. And perhaps a counselling "drop-in" or whatever, and other such? Couldn't that make it a bit more attractive? Added to the fact that you'd be able to invite anyone you happened to know was getting a bit disillusioned with their own "faith"... oh yeah, and if the thing took off then you'd be able to visit the local one when you travelled around somewhere else, and so on. And it wouldn't have to be a Friday. It could be Sunday, or Wednesday evening, or different times for different places, or whatever. It could be every ten days or something so that it landed on a different day of the week each time. Whatever.

People respond to incentives, and unfortunately there isn't something intrinsically bound into atheism itself to make people bind together in a powerful enough way to over-topple religion. Humanist groups might have a good start by providing the "be nice feel good" social setting, but not every atheist identifies as a humanist, or cares. Skeptics promoting science and critical thinking have an excellent chance, but not all of them are actually atheists. And not all atheists are actually anti-theists. They just want to be left alone and valued as humans.

I'm sure you are right about loads of people. But nevertheless I suspect there are just as many who would like to actually do something about the religion thing instead of merely grumble about it. Right now, there's not a great deal the ordinary Joe like me can do to counter the curse of religion - and I do see it as a curse, because it's basically a total fu**-up. And I'm also pretty confident there are not a small number of people who basically don't really believe in god but just go along to the Church for the social kudos or some sense of comfort or whatever. I don't see why an atheist structure could not be created to absorb them.

There's no easy way for us all to band together to get religion out of our lives because we all have a slightly different idea of how it should be done - politically, scientifically, etc. Christians at least have the unifying factor of believing in Christ, but atheists don't even have the want to undermine religion to bring them all under one roof.

Atheists have zillions of unifying factors. The Big Bang for a start. Evolution.
Dark matter. Electricity. Plus there's loads of unifying problems. Population control, global warming, peak oil, wars (largely religion inspired) ...

PS - I don't have a short attention span,

even though it's hard for me to get into long posts at work. I still really like them, so keep them coming.

We'll see what happens. Thanks for being nice to me.

[Justtristo]

I copied this from a different thread, as it seems to provide a good start-off point for a new one. (I sincerely hope I am not breaking any taboos or protocols or anything by doing this)

I hate what religion is doing, I want to take away it's power and influence as well. If you know of a way, please share.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do. Unfortunately I seem to be crap at it.

OK, look, (a) this is not a sure proven method or anything, it's just an idea and (b) it probably won't sound particularly original. But I've thought and thought and thought about it, and it seems to me the only chance there is of de-powering existing religions.

Whatever you like to think about religions, you have to admit that it's proved to be a pretty darned effective way of getting loads of folks to all dance to the same tune. So my suggestion basically is simply this: Copy their methods only steer folk in the right direction instead of a wrong one.

So what are their methods? Well obviously this would have to be gone into properly, but here's a few ideas (not in any particular order).

1) They meet regularly. Churches do it on Sundays. Mosques every day but particularly Fridays. Synagogues Saturdays.

2) They do "good works". Charity stuff, and so on.

3) They are welcoming to strangers. At least the x-tians are, in my experience. Dunno about the others.

4) They proselytise.

5) They have some kind of a belief structure.

6) They ritually worship something or someone.

7) They publicize themselves as a group.

8) They have some kind of secret, like an "inner sanctum" or circle or something providing them with some kind of exclusivity.

9) They offer advice.

10) They provide services like marriage ceremonies, funerals and stuff.

OK - that'll do for now, sure you get my drift. Oh no, woops, left one out.

11) They have a "message" to deliver.

So anyway, no doubt discussion would change the list somewhat. But you get the idea I hope.

Now the "big thing" about Christianity is the message of Christ, right? He's supposed to be the son of god come down to Earth to get us all on the right path. Probably all seemed pretty reasonable at the time, given the state of knowledge. And basically, the message was "please be nice to each other", right?

Well, what's wrong with that? The message I mean, not the son of god thing. Seems OK to me, OK needs tidying up a bit, like the golden rule, whatever. I think it's pretty important, vital in fact, for folks to start being nice to each other. Particularly nations. Seems to me that the "message" of an atheist churchy-type thing would be pretty similar. Be Nice.

Now of course comes the tricky bit. Because what the old Jesus fellah did was to call upon some supposed cosmic figure to give his preaching that bit of authority which made people want to follow his teaching (the being nice to each other stuff). Those were the days, eh - cos nowadays it just won't wash. I mean, even the X-tians themselves don't really believe in the Grand Old Guy in the Sky any more, and a lot of them even think the "virgin birth" is more symbolic than real. So there's a problem on the authority front.

So how the flip would the kind of organisation I am proposing get some kind of authority for its teachings? Hmmmm. Well, there's always Science I suppose. Probably by some other name. "The Great Truth-Giver" perhaps. Something. Santa Veracita - the Source of All Knowledge (known as "The Source"). Whatever. Needs working on.

Basically then, apart from the praying bit, they'd do all the other stuff. And try and lure xtians and others away from the false path onto the true one (ie there is no such thing as god). And yet not leave the people feeling "out in the cold" like many do today. And, in time, as it really IS promoting the real truth, it should stand a pretty good chance of catching on in a really big way, knocking all the other "religious" organsatiomns out the window.

That's the outline. Of course it would need a name. I've been trying to think of one - one I suggested to the humanists (and got flayed alive for) was C.H.U.R.C.H. Something like "Concerned Humanists Undertaking Really Careful Help" - I know, yuk! But look, this is only the outlines of an idea, it would need loads of proper thinking about.

Any thoughts anyone?

________________________________________________________________

Oh dear. I think I know what happens now... (I fear the words "load" & "bolix" might figure somewhere).

Talk about psychological projection

Seriously when people harp on about atheists being "militant" or "evangelistic", often these are same people are very evangelistic when it comes to their particular faith.

[Godnose]

...His general motto on all of his threads seems to be: "Atheists should take tips from the church because they have it all figured out. They are providing something that the public truly needs."

That should be "wants" not "needs". If I said "needs" then that was an error and I regret it. Sure it wasn't "think they need" or something? Whatever, if they didn't want it they wouldn't do it. Round my way they are flocking to it!

What kind of atheist promotes and even praises the actions of the church to a point that it feels like he's actually trying to sell it to other atheists as a template to be followed??

I'm not trying to sell it at all, what I want is to undermine it. To be frank, your attitude isn't having much success that I can see. Seems to me that religion is going from strength to strength, even more so in the States than here in the UK. And it's rife here.

I find this sentiment to be truly disgusting considering the atrocities that religion has brought upon this planet.

And continues to bring. What are YOU doing about it then?

Furthermore, as Shell B and yourself have pointed out multiple times, there are many social outlets where one can meet up weekly to mire them self in group interaction if so desired.

Yeah - mostly provided or dependent upon a church of one kind or another!

As I pointed out in an earlier post ... the whole idea is a broken record and I for one, would love to see him discuss something else or return to lurking in the corners.

I never lurked pal. Yup, I joined a while back, had a quick look round, saw it looked like the usual confrontational BS as on most fora, and forgot about it. Then a few weeks ago someone emailed me and said they were "puzzled" I had not posted, and urged me to do so. So I did. hang on - I'll just get the email... yup here it is:

From: Atheist Forums
Sent: 05/08/11 09:10 PM
To: godnose@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: A quick reminder from Atheist Forums!
Dear Godnose,

Many thanks for becoming a member of atheistforums.org; you certainly made the right choice! We are one of the foremost atheist discussion sites out there on the net, and the number one place where you can be guaranteed lively, intelligent, and balanced debates not only about atheism but also a wide range of other related and fascinating topics.

We are therefore a little puzzled why you have not posted yet. God forbid (pun intended) that we would want to put any pressure on you, but if only you would come along and say hello and get involved, even just a little, we feel sure that you will drawn in to what will almost certainly become you new favourite place on the web.

Best regards and hope to see you soon,

-Atheist Forums Staff

Only, like I told thesummerqueen, I don't do laying low and came steaming in like a - well, I dunno what it was like. A steamer? Anyway I just can't do sidling up to people or chat up lines or stuff like that. Me, I know what I'm about and if it's too much for you all then you'll get me kicked out. Simple as that.

---

Seriously when people harp on about atheists being "militant" or "evangelistic", often these are same people are very evangelistic when it comes to their particular faith.

This is relevant how exactly?

[Justtristo]

Seriously when people harp on about atheists being "militant" or "evangelistic", often these are same people are very evangelistic when it comes to their particular faith.

This is relevant how exactly?

Because it is reason why you come on here and talk this shit.

[Cinjin]

What kind of atheist promotes and even praises the actions of the church to a point that it feels like he's actually trying to sell it to other atheists as a template to be followed??[/b]

I'm not trying to sell it at all, what I want is to undermine it. To be frank, your attitude isn't having much success that I can see. Seems to me that religion is going from strength to strength, even more so in the States than here in the UK. And it's rife here.

I never lurked pal. Yup, I joined a while back, had a quick look round, saw it looked like the usual confrontational BS as on most fora, and forgot about it. Then a few weeks ago someone emailed me and said they were "puzzled" I had not posted, and urged me to do so. So I did. hang on - I'll just get the email... yup here it is:

You say you want to undermine it, but with every other sentence all I'm reading is high praise and how all of us non-religious folk should jump on your band wagon because you got it all figured out. Promoting the guidance of priests and praising the common unity of religious douchebags is NOT "undermining" - I don't care how much you pretend it is. I still say you are a misguided and possibly delusional wannabe atheist who only now is playing the martyr by saying things like, "thanks for being nice to me" ... as if the treatment you are currently receiving is not your fault. It is.

As for the lurking ... there is absolutely nothing wrong with lurking. In fact, several of us would really prefer that you in particular consider the practice of lurking. That email was sent to hopefully spur some interest from members who may have signed up and possibly forgot their original interest in these forums. The interaction from you IS the intent of the email ... the A-hole behavior, which admittedly, you have curtailed a bit, is not.

You want to undermine religion ... I'm all for it, but why don't your try doing it without selling it at the same exact time. It's confusing and more than a bit annoying.