God does not determine right and wrong

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

I found this in A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

To religious people: If god declared that rape and murder were morally acceptable, would that make them so? 

that'll never happen

[Cinjin]

I found this in A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

To religious people: If god declared that rape and murder were morally acceptable, would that make them so? 

Most of you would probably say that god would not say such a thing. But why not? Presumably because god would have some reason for not making such a declaration. But this means that there is some reason for finding rape and murder to be morally wrong. In which case, why can't we appeal to reason directly and remove god from the discussion?

I don't understand this OP. Thousands of years has long since taught us one thing for sure:

God lets you do absolutely anything you want as long as you do it "in his name."

This is NOT breaking news bro.

[Banned]

Nations were punished by god for supposedly killing their children....by killing the children of those nations. How does this make sense? Pretty sure it was more about worshiping other deities, than doing anything else.

Either God is too merciful in our opinion or too harsh. But it's not like we know everything, especially from a brief outline of history, so making serious judgments about God, to the point of blasphemy is not very bright at all.

---

That sort of taps into one of the frightening things about religion. We all know rape, murder, torture to be wrong. But since God is totally and obviously made up, whoever wants to can just say that God wants them to behave in an immoral way.

That's been done forever.

It doesn't sound right, are you just guessing?

---

Maybe your god.   I have never been disgusted with mine.

What is your god?

---

You are one sick individual, you know that?  You either believe these people were real people, but can’t think of them as people because it threatens your  precious Yahweh, therefore allowing you to rationalize killing babies, or deep down you know the stories are fiction, and you’re lying.  Let me ask you, Banned:  are you pro-choice or pro-life?  I’ll advise you to consider what you wrote above before answering.

I'm not sure what you are on about.

The Bible doesn't tell the reader what to think about these stories, it just states the event, and it is up to the reader to judge what went on...

Some will see nothing but injustice in God's actions, others will see a pathetic situation bought on by people, and an end to their cruelty, on themselves, their own children and on innocent strangers.

They had many generations of life granted to them, up to this climactic time, when the evil and misery they produced was intolerable, and God knew that they would never have recovered or wanted to repent of it.

As the giver and sustainer of life, he has every right not to continue the existence of an unrepentant murderer.

But the fickle and uninformed will say, "Poor people."
Yes, they are poor, poor enough for God to give his Son for them, but they were so poor they never wanted redemption, and chose the ways that lead to death.

---

That's a website you nimrod, not a false religion.

BTW Mr. biblical scholar, that's Revelation 14:12,: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rev/14.html

According to what you say most of the Christians here are false Christians. Am I reading that correctly?

I was commenting on your words prior to the link.

I have said in other threads that the churches of the world have become a playground for Satan and his hosts.
So yes, the majority of congregations are kept in the dark about God's law. This does not condemn them, but it doesn't help them.
It is predicted in the Bible that they will be made aware of their situation before the end of time.

[Nay_Sayer]

Nations were punished by god for supposedly killing their children....by killing the children of those nations. How does this make sense? Pretty sure it was more about worshiping other deities, than doing anything else.

Either God is too merciful in our opinion or too harsh. But it's not like we know everything, especially from a brief outline of history, so making serious judgments about God, to the point of blasphemy is not very bright at all.

---

That sort of taps into one of the frightening things about religion.  We all know rape, murder, torture to be wrong. But since God is totally and obviously made up, whoever wants to can just say that God wants them to behave in an immoral way.

That's been done forever.

It doesn't sound right, are you just guessing?

---

Maybe your god.   I have never been disgusted with mine.

What is your god?

---

You are one sick individual, you know that?  You either believe these people were real people, but can’t think of them as people because it threatens your  precious Yahweh, therefore allowing you to rationalize killing babies, or deep down you know the stories are fiction, and you’re lying.  Let me ask you, Banned:  are you pro-choice or pro-life?  I’ll advise you to consider what you wrote above before answering.

I'm not sure what you are on about.

The Bible doesn't tell the reader what to think about these stories, it just states the event, and it is up to the reader to judge what went on...

Some will see nothing but injustice in God's actions, others will see a pathetic situation bought on by people, and an end to their cruelty, on themselves, their own children and on innocent strangers.

They had many generations of life granted to them, up to this climactic time, when the evil and misery they produced was intolerable, and God knew that they would never have recovered or wanted to repent of it.

As the giver and sustainer of life, he has every right not to continue the existence of an unrepentant murderer.

But the fickle and uninformed will say, "Poor people."
Yes, they are poor, poor enough for God to give his Son for them, but they were so poor they never wanted redemption, and chose the ways that lead to death.

---

That's a website you nimrod, not a false religion.

BTW Mr. biblical scholar, that's Revelation 14:12,: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rev/14.html

According to what you say most of the Christians here are false Christians. Am I reading that correctly?

I was commenting on your words prior to the link.

I have said in other threads that the churches of the world have become a playground for Satan and his hosts.
So yes, the majority of congregations are kept in the dark about God's law. This does not condemn them, but it doesn't help them.
It is predicted in the Bible that they will be made aware of their situation before the end of time.

The only one that's real, duh.

RAmen

[Banned]

Societal reform, so that children don't grow up like their parents, is beyond the wisdom of Yahweh. Just killing the lot of them is easier.

If that society could have been reformed God would not have ended it.
I suggest that you watch some videos on social reform for pedophiles. Pity is right, but it doesn't always reform.

[LadyForCamus]

You are one sick individual, you know that?  You either believe these people were real people, but can’t think of them as people because it threatens your  precious Yahweh, therefore allowing you to rationalize killing babies, or deep down you know the stories are fiction, and you’re lying.  Let me ask you, Banned:  are you pro-choice or pro-life?  I’ll advise you to consider what you wrote above before answering.

I'm not sure what you are on about.

The Bible doesn't tell the reader what to think about these stories, it just states the event, and it is up to the reader to judge what went on...

Some will see nothing but injustice in God's actions, others will see a pathetic situation bought on by people, and an end to their cruelty, on themselves, their own children and on innocent strangers.

They had many generations of life granted to them, up to this climactic time, when the evil and misery they produced was intolerable, and God knew that they would never have recovered or wanted to repent of it.

As the giver and sustainer of life, he has every right not to continue the existence of an unrepentant murderer.

But the fickle and uninformed will say, "Poor people."
Yes, they are poor, poor enough for God to give his Son for them, but they were so poor they never wanted redemption, and chose the ways that lead to death.

Whoa.  Red herrings everywhere.  You’re “good by nature” god ordered the slaughter of babies.  Babies are innocent, whoever they came from.  Are you pro-life, or pro-choice, Banned?

[Mr.wizard]

I found this in A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

To religious people: If god declared that rape and murder were morally acceptable, would that make them so? 

that'll never happen

According to the bible it did happen.

[Chad32]

Nations were punished by god for supposedly killing their children....by killing the children of those nations. How does this make sense? Pretty sure it was more about worshiping other deities, than doing anything else.

Either God is too merciful in our opinion or too harsh. But it's not like we know everything, especially from a brief outline of history, so making serious judgments about God, to the point of blasphemy is not very bright at all.

That seems to only count when someone claims he's bad. Never when people claim he's good, which is an equally serious judgment. I can look at his actions and say he's bad. People who say he's good usually have to reinterpret what's plainly said in the book, or claim it's allegory, or some other excuse.

---

Societal reform, so that children don't grow up like their parents, is beyond the wisdom of Yahweh. Just killing the lot of them is easier.

If that society could have been reformed God would not have ended it.
I suggest that you watch some videos on social reform for pedophiles. Pity is right, but it doesn't always reform.

Then he's not all powerful, is he? There are limits to what he's capable of. I know there are limits to what we're capable of, and if he can't do better than that, then he isn't worth worshiping as some higher being.

[Ignorant]

...Presumably because god would have some reason for not making such a declaration. But this means that there is some reason for finding rape and murder to be morally wrong. In which case, why can't we appeal to reason directly and remove god from the discussion?

You can, in fact, discuss morality and its reasons without discussing god.

The reality which is the human person becomes the "object" of moral reasoning. I.e. Which human actions truly bring about the best version of humanity. Two aspects of the discussion: 1) What is the "best version of humanity" and 2) Which sort of actions bring it about.

Those are not easy discussions, but they are certainly worth having.

[Banned]

Whoa.  Red herrings everywhere.  You’re “good by nature” god ordered the slaughter of babies.  Babies are innocent, whoever they came from.  Are you pro-life, or pro-choice, Banned?

You are a wonderful compassionate human being, and I react the same way that most people do to these stories in the Bible - with abhorrence...and questions.

But there is no point in telling anyone how much God grieves over people that ruin themselves to the point of being less than animals, because many people have already pre- judged God as evil, without a clue to what happened over centuries and to what extent evil had developed, and in what condition all life, babies and all, in such a society was - physically, mentally and spiritually.
The laws of heredity can be strong enough to predestine the character of the offspring.
The reason you and I cannot imagine such a thing is because we don't experience a lot of abhorrent crimes and we assume people are generally nice.
Unfortunately the world will become the hell hole that these ancient civilizations were, and until then we will probably not cry for justice and intervention.

People are far less tolerant of evil than God is.

The crime of the Amalekites wasn't dealt with until much later, but if we lived back then, and saw their society we would have begged God to wipe it out straight away and not years later.
But as I said, you and I are not exposed to this level of corruption yet.

Babies are innocent, does that mean that adult monsters should be saved, because they were once babies?
Or should a God who knows their future decisions and character prevent them from existing? Or should he remove them from the earth and take them to heaven on resurrection day?

The Bible isn't silent on these matters, but it does not make obvious statements for the ruthless to pick up on.

If it is any consolation, heaven will have millions of babies without their evil parents, and they will be looked after and raised in love.