Open discussion of the Christian Why We're Here thread

[Whateverist]

So I'd prefer this thread be only for actually discussing points brought up in the  Christian-only why-we're-here discussion thread or for evaluating particular posts they make there.

We're not under any special requirement to be civil here, but I would prefer that jokes for the sake of jokes, expression of ones dissatisfaction at being left out of the xtian club house, or venting of one's feelings about it all remain in one of the earlier threads which ultimately led to the one of interest here.

I don't anticipate following any technical discussion in that thread concerning scripture.  But I wanted a place to share my response to their initial statement of why they're here.  

C_L's first post was exactly what I would have expected and dove tails with what she has said elsewhere.  She is mostly interested to understand the thinking of people who think differently than she does.  While she admits she'd be delighted if anyone adopted her beliefs (presumably to share in the satisfaction she thinks contributes to her own happiness), she doesn't think it is a realistic expectation.  My impression is that she is actually more motivated to earn our respect than to convert us.  I think she would like for us to question any overly simplistic stereotypes we may have about believers.

It strikes me that her reasons are laudatory and realistic.  Like a lot of others here, I am admittedly a big fan.  But then, like her, I have no illusions of converting believers to atheists through anything I say or do here.  If that were to happen I would only hope that the decrease in cognitive dissonance would be worth the price of surrendering the world view they seem to like so much.  Really, I think it is the experience of the private relationship with a mysterious, wise and helpful other which they are most loath to lose and which would account for the dissatisfaction some genuinely seem to feel about it. 

The case of Jacob(smooth) a very popular member who rarely posts any more comes to mind.  He posted this very in depth response to my request for some biographical background.  Jacob's autobiography  He essentially de-converted from the Christian faith he had when he came here, though my impression was he might have come here to do that on some level.  Looking back, he seems to have found a way to acknowledge some benefit in having been raised in the faith even though that all seemed based on a lie in retrospect.   Or so it seems from this  thread he started.

[ignoramus]

Mark, agree with the above. But I'm always stumped as to why here? On this forum? With us heathens?
Is it because deep down she knows most atheists are secular humanists and are naturally more tolerant of religious people? That would make sense to me.

I take it that's why most of us heathens are here. To respect each other as humans first.
This, by its very nature, is not something a religious person could comfortably do.
We should be treated as infidels. Thank God for Christianity lite I say.

[Amarok]

So far it sounds like a circle jerk  lot of whining ,complaining , and boo hoo victimhood .(accept CL)

CL was good so far 

Beta's was just a display of his ignorance and ego .and airing his made up grievances. 

Dirch so far is just whining.

Ahole is just Ahole

[robvalue]

I'd guess the reason most Christians (I'm including all the drive-by types in this) come to atheist forums is because it's guaranteed to be full of targets.

I can't speak for the silent lurkers of course, but in all my time on such forums, I've never seen anyone even remotely swayed by any preaching anyone has brought. What I have seen instead, quite frequently, is people become more disgusted with the religions in question due to the way they get presented.

Thankfully there are a few theists here and there who actually want to engage with atheists and are genuinely interested in hearing what they have to say. To those, I say thank you very much.

[Brian37]

I'd guess the reason most Christians (I'm including all the drive-by types in this) come to atheist forums is because it's guaranteed to be full of targets.

I can't speak for the silent lurkers of course, but in all my time on such forums, I've never seen anyone even remotely swayed by any preaching anyone has brought. What I have seen instead, quite frequently, is people become more disgusted with the religions in question due to the way they get presented.

Thankfully there are a few theists here and there who actually want to engage with atheists and are genuinely interested in hearing what they have to say. To those, I say thank you very much.

I may hate the logic of theists, but we do have a handful of die hards here, like a TimeX, take a licking and keep on ticking.

[Little lunch]

I don't profess to know why theists come here.
But I think it's good for us in the way that a lot of atheists seem to think they are our enemies and we get to see their humanness, their loves and hates, their intelligence or lack of and most importantly their similarities.
I'll admit, I came here four years ago on a pedestal that reached the stars, but since then it has slowly dawned on me that theists come in all shapes and sizes and some are better people than me, whilst some are worse.
I'm no longer proud to be an atheist, it's just a fact about me now.
I can't see them changing my mind or me changing theirs. It's a personal journey.
Mostly, I'm quite happy to have them here and I think the forum is better for it.

[vulcanlogician]

I, for one, really appreciate the theists' presence here. They really round out the place. I mean, AF.org would almost feel incomplete without them. So I am interested in the discussion of what motivates them to hang out on an atheist forum in the first place. So far, I think the posts have done much to show "the human element" involved-- that some theists aren't so much "called" to convert the nonbelievers so much as they are individual humans motivated by human concerns: to understand the other side, to correct widely-held misunderstandings, or to engage others in debate. These are the kind of things that motivate anyone to join any forum.

Since I am participating in the debate as moderator, I don't want to parse through the statements of the participants here, as I otherwise would, but I did want to drop in and say that I think the Christian-only debate is a good thing, and it reflects very well on AF.org that we would have such a thing.

A few months ago, I joined several Christian forums... and you know what I found to be common practice? Many Christian forums limit nonbelievers to posting in specified areas while allowing "believers" (which really just means people who make a claim about their beliefs) to post anywhere they wish on the forum. Atheists can read the posts in these sections, but they can't respond. And oftentimes, these "Christian-only" sections constitute around 90% of the forum. I found it frustrating to dip into these forbidden areas and read unbridled Trump worship and bigotry against homosexuals without even being able to chime in with my two cents. One Christian-only section of a forum was even headed with a warning: "claims that a homosexual lifestyle is healthy will not be tolerated," even from a Christian who wants to argue the position. I understand that these places are often trying to create a place of refuge, where believers can go to support one another--not necessarily wanting to be engaged in debate at every corner, but as my Trump worship observation suggests, it often results in an echo chamber. It might be motivated by good intentions, but it ends up being a space in which certain beliefs go unchallenged.

We should take pride in the fact that, at AF.org, we are not such cowards. We allow anyone to post anywhere on the forum, regardless if they belong to our in-group. We are not afraid to have our beliefs called into question, and it's pretty much a given that if any of us (atheist or otherwise) makes an outrageous claim, it will be run through the rigors of skepticism.

Not only do we allow anyone to post anywhere (which ought to be the case on any forum), but we have taken special care to ensure that a minority voice is not lost in the deluge of general opinion. For that reason, I think this Christian-only debate is a good thing. It shows that we at AF.org not only welcome a Christian position, but we are also unafraid of taking measures to ensure that it is clarified, so that everybody hears it.

Those cowards at Trump Worship Incorporated could never allow such a thing. It would mean the undoing of their entire institution. To even get close to what we have done, they would have to first allow atheists to post anywhere on the forum, and then they would have to create a special place wherein atheists could clarify their position so that everyone could hear it, without resistance from the majority opinion. The cowards can't do it. It's just not in them. But it is in us. We are not afraid to allow all sides of a debate equal representation and will even take special measures to ensure that it is so. That's why I think the Christian-only debate on AF.org is a good thing.

[robvalue]

Sure, we are not scared of peoples' opinions. We're not scared of people disagreeing. It's a good thing to have a variety of voices all making their case, with each reader then free to make up their mind who is the most convincing. People who have to silence others clearly feel pretty insecure.

(Of course there must be some rules, but I feel there's about the minimum here for a safe, functioning environment.)

[brewer]

They are all masochists?

Oh shit, if that's true what does that make the rest of us?

[I_am_not_mafia]

https://atheistforums.org/thread-54756-p...pid1748352

Drich said:

I was in search of true neutral ground a place where if I played by the rules I would get my voice heard. This by far is the only place I've found that will allow a Christian to "win"/Beat the teeth out of an atheist whether he be noob or established member. Just so long as site rules are not broken.

He got utterly destroyed when he brought his odious views to TTA. He was given a free voice. Nor do I think he's ever 'won' a debate on AF.