Substitutionary Atonement! WTF?

[Godscreated]

. . . .


 Who are you to judge God, you're a being that has lived for a moment in time and God has lived for an eternity, He has witnessed it all before it ever happened, He understands the outcomes and how they will effect everything. God is perfect and unchanging, this is why Christians can live a life assured God will do as He said He would do. I'm not sure where you got your disassembled ideas about God but where ever they came from you have been shown wrong and should investigate for yourself who God is.

GC

God is omnipotent and can change His mind whenever He wants.

1 Samuel 15 (KJV)
35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

How does this show God changed His mind, He warned Israel that a king was not good to start with, God gave them what they wanted and they got what they did not want, a bad king. This is what God was sorrowful about.

GC

[Godscreated]

Waking up in the morning doesn't mean God has spared your life, it means He is giving you another day to find Him. God knows whether you will find Him or not before your life is over, yet He still gives you another day each day you wake up. Your life like everyone else has an appointed end.


By the things you've said in posts I do not believe you do know what absolute perfection is, not in the case of the creation and God's love for mankind. Free will was part of the creation and being so meant that God placed His perfect creation in the way of man's ability to choose wrongly. To have controlled man from making a wrong choice would mean God wasn't the God who could take care of the bad situation man put the creation in. He has and will. 


That child of David's is in heaven with God, he is in a far better place than we are and has life eternal with God. David was the one punished not the child, the child received eternal life and David had to grieve his loss. You see if you are going to assume God you must assume all that He does, all. You can't choose to call Him a murderer and forget that He gives eternal life to the child, that is where atheist go wrong, they pick out what they want to believe about God and not understand that there is much more to Him than they want to believe. I could say more about this but for now I'll leave it alone.

You do not know what the smell of blood means because you do not know what the Bible teaches. You are clueless to the fact that the blood represents the forgiveness of sin and it is this forgiveness that God loves. Before God scattered the Jewish people by allowing them to be conquered He told them He was tired of their sacrifices and He would not forgive them and hated the smells of the sacrifice. Essentially He was telling them they were wasting His time, their time and the lives of innocent animals and He was not going to help them through this again. You see my knowledge is more than cursory.  


 Change is not necessary for a perfect being and neither is jealousy wrong for a perfect being. Now change is necessary for the flawed and jealousy can be wrong in a person if they act unjustly upon that jealousy. Hey listen I've questioned God, but knowing He is the perfect being I ask Him to show me the truth because I know I'm flawed in my understanding of what God has done or is doing. If God were the dictator you want to believe Him to be do you really believe He would stop tormenting you every minute of your life, do you really believe He would need a hell to do so, you should think this over carefully. An omnipotent God that has no controlling traits would be the worse thing ever, there would be no stopping Him and if He were the terrible, manipulative being you believe He is then life would never be worth living, this in itself should show you that there is a God and that He is who He says He is and that you are the one who is mistaken about Him in all areas.

GC

Yes, he's supposed to be all knowing, so he knows exactly what I need to start believing he exists, and to convince me to start giving him a chance. Yet that hasn't happened.

Giving God a chance! God has already lived for an eternity and will continue on forevermore. You are the one who needs the chance it's you who needs redemption to have eternal life, not God. God is laying out before you your chance and He could only do that with the death and resurrection of Jesus. You are correct in say God knows what it will take to come to Him and if He has already presented it you have rejected it, maybe you need to look back through the history of your life and see, it is vital to find that calling. If as you say it hasn't happened yet it will and you should be keeping your ears open, the invitation is not something you should miss nor reject. Read the parable of the wedding feast it has information that will help.

He gave us free will, but there are many things that happen outside of our control. And when one evil person does something bad to his follower, he's basically choosing the evil person's free will over the victim. So the free will argument doesn't really slide. It also implies there's no free will in heaven, otherwise everyone would get kicked out eventually. And if there is free will in heaven, and it's working up there, why can't he make it work down here?

The bold by me doesn't really make sense, unless your saying God chooses to punish the evil doer for exercising his free will, well it's sin and sin must be punished. The victim didn't choose to have something bad happen to him by another person, that's what victim means.
There is free will in heave, in heaven we will understand the truth of God and who He is, we will have no desire to chose wrongly in heaven, we will chose to worship God instead because we will completely love Him. This argument atheist throw out when it comes to free will in heaven is no argument at all, you all have no understanding of God's work and who God is, you thus haven't a leg to stand on, why do you think Christians here always reject your claims about free will in heaven it's because that is all they are unfounded opinion. It can't work here because man has a sin nature about him and chooses to submit to the nature of self, now to understand this you might need to do a little Bible study, I've tried to explain it many times and no one seems to get it or they are just ignoring it, I believe it's the later. 

This makes me think that god doesn't understand the effects that death has on people. Because saying "he's in heaven with god" is never going to comfort anyone. Why aren't we killing every baby on the planet, then? If I truly believed they all go to heaven, then wouldn't I risk hell to ensure thousands, if not millions or billions of souls get heaven? It's a twisted concept to just say "well, babies that die get auto heaven". Besides, I don't remember any verses that explicitly state all children under a certain age go to heaven. Are you sure you're not the one picking and choosing what you believe?

Yes I'm sure I'm not picking and choosing, if I were then I would believe I was perfect and I know for a fact I'm not because I understand what the scriptures teach about me specifically. God has given a commandment of, do not murder and we are to obey that no matter what our intentions are, our intentions may seem correct when they are completely detirmental. Besides if you killed all the babies you would put an end to the human race and God nor man will allow such. You are trying to make an argument out of what God chooses to do with small children, I would think that people would be glad the little ones get into heaven. As for age that would depend on each child's development. Another thing you are over looking, Paul said he would gladly go to an eternal punishment if all the Jews could be saved but he then says this is not a possibility, He understood how god does things.
 God fully understands what it means for people to die, Jesus wept because of Lazarus's death and the effect it had on Martha. I just lost my mom and God has been with me, bringing me comfort because He knows it hurts deeply, even though I know she is in His presence, I miss her and what she brought to my life.

No, I know what it means when a guy orders people to go into a neighboring town to kill everyone except the virgin girls, and then hangs around to smell the blood and enjoy the carnage. It doesn't speak well of this god you worship.

God never said what you claim because you do not understand that somethings in the Bible are metaphors and I explained to you that meaning, it seems you have ignored what I said or stopped reading after the first sentence. If you can't except anything from people who know the things scriptures say then how can you possibly learn anything other than your own biased opinion.

When you say flaws aren't flaws when it's god, that's special pleading. Either jealousy is wrong, or it isn't. You can't just make an arbitrary exception.

Either killing a person is wrong or it isn't. By the above bold by me there would be no exceptions to killing, it all would be murder. So, no, I've not made an arbitrary exception even if the first part of your above reply is correct and it isn't. I never said God has a flaw of any kind that was you and you are wrong. Jealousy is an emotion, a thing that can just pop up even without warning, the wrong in jealousy is how you act upon it and I explained this in my last post to you, again you are not listening but rather acting on your biased opinion.

Apparently there is no stopping him. The world is often a horrible place, and it takes effort to keep going. It doesn't matter if you're the most devout follower of the correct god, your life is just as likely to suck as anyone else's. You'll get the same effect from worshiping Kim Jong Il.

 In that you are completely wrong, "Kim the little fatty," is considered a god in North Korea and worshiping him has gotten his people nothing but trouble, they are starving to death by the tens of thousands every month. Even his military are under nourished as reported by a defector from his army just recently. I on the other hand have a garden blessed by God to provide me with much good food even through the winter months. You are right the world is a horrible place and man has made it this way and we are reaping what we've sown, but the Christians of this world can avoid much of this mess by living for God and keeping out of worldly living. Believe me when I tell you this, I know many Christians who live for God and worry little about the world that is falling apart, they have trust in God to care for them, as I do. We are concerned for those who are lost in the world, If I wasn't I would not be here and because of the debate the Christians had I'm considering leaving soon to re-evaluate if being here is actually worth what I'm missing out on in life.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

You have a magic garden?  Or is it just a normal garden.............like every other garden.  Filled with plants bred by men... because god, in his omnipotence and great beneficience...couldn;t be bothered to provide us with food sources even though he saw fit to make them a requirement and cursed us to till the soil.  Compounding his decisions in this regard, wasn;t it also god who determined the distribution of natural resources and their fundamental inequality? Thus ensuring that people in places like NOKO would starve.

Is starving people to death through intent and neglect wrong? How many of gods fuckups are we going to have to fix before you stop blaming the victim and worshipping the victimizer?

Or, if you prefer..when are you going to grow up and stop pretending that you have a magical garden? When are you going to start giving a shit for your fellow man and his "worldly" concerns? Is the entirety of your faith an exercise in doublespeak, selfish apathy, and wishthinking? Are these the fruits that we should know you by? Invoking the starvation of an entire country as nothing more than a prop in your fanfic retconning of an iron age fairy tale? What did those starving people sow..that they reap privation and hunger? What egregious sin have they committed? Are they being starved for failing to properly worship a figment of your imagination? If they all came to christ on your terms turnips would spring forth from the earth and their bowls would fill with rice?

I find it massively ironic that those who insist that men have ruined this world are precisely the sorts of people who engage in that ruinous work, if true. Clutching their golden ticket and deriding those who suffer, wishing and waiting for an end to this life and doing naught from here to there but attempt to insist upon a cruel, petty, and vindictive cosmic force that will validate all of their own insufficiency in this life, come the next one.

You...GC, are a disgrace to your religion and no decent person of faith would want to be associated with your thoughts and opinions. That much, at least, is impressive...because the bar was already low to begin with. Your failure as a human being perfectly circumscribes your failure as a christian...and if there was ever a word of wisdom or kindness that fell from the lips of a god it;s been wholly wasted on you.

[Chad32]

Yes, he's supposed to be all knowing, so he knows exactly what I need to start believing he exists, and to convince me to start giving him a chance. Yet that hasn't happened.

Giving God a chance! God has already lived for an eternity and will continue on forevermore. You are the one who needs the chance it's you who needs redemption to have eternal life, not God. God is laying out before you your chance and He could only do that with the death and resurrection of Jesus. You are correct in say God knows what it will take to come to Him and if He has already presented it you have rejected it, maybe you need to look back through the history of your life and see, it is vital to find that calling. If as you say it hasn't happened yet it will and you should be keeping your ears open, the invitation is not something you should miss nor reject. Read the parable of the wedding feast it has information that will help.

He gave us free will, but there are many things that happen outside of our control. And when one evil person does something bad to his follower, he's basically choosing the evil person's free will over the victim. So the free will argument doesn't really slide. It also implies there's no free will in heaven, otherwise everyone would get kicked out eventually. And if there is free will in heaven, and it's working up there, why can't he make it work down here?

The bold by me doesn't really make sense, unless your saying God chooses to punish the evil doer for exercising his free will, well it's sin and sin must be punished. The victim didn't choose to have something bad happen to him by another person, that's what victim means.
There is free will in heave, in heaven we will understand the truth of God and who He is, we will have no desire to chose wrongly in heaven, we will chose to worship God instead because we will completely love Him. This argument atheist throw out when it comes to free will in heaven is no argument at all, you all have no understanding of God's work and who God is, you thus haven't a leg to stand on, why do you think Christians here always reject your claims about free will in heaven it's because that is all they are unfounded opinion. It can't work here because man has a sin nature about him and chooses to submit to the nature of self, now to understand this you might need to do a little Bible study, I've tried to explain it many times and no one seems to get it or they are just ignoring it, I believe it's the later. 

This makes me think that god doesn't understand the effects that death has on people. Because saying "he's in heaven with god" is never going to comfort anyone. Why aren't we killing every baby on the planet, then? If I truly believed they all go to heaven, then wouldn't I risk hell to ensure thousands, if not millions or billions of souls get heaven? It's a twisted concept to just say "well, babies that die get auto heaven". Besides, I don't remember any verses that explicitly state all children under a certain age go to heaven. Are you sure you're not the one picking and choosing what you believe?

Yes I'm sure I'm not picking and choosing, if I were then I would believe I was perfect and I know for a fact I'm not because I understand what the scriptures teach about me specifically. God has given a commandment of, do not murder and we are to obey that no matter what our intentions are, our intentions may seem correct when they are completely detirmental. Besides if you killed all the babies you would put an end to the human race and God nor man will allow such. You are trying to make an argument out of what God chooses to do with small children, I would think that people would be glad the little ones get into heaven. As for age that would depend on each child's development. Another thing you are over looking, Paul said he would gladly go to an eternal punishment if all the Jews could be saved but he then says this is not a possibility, He understood how god does things.
 God fully understands what it means for people to die, Jesus wept because of Lazarus's death and the effect it had on Martha. I just lost my mom and God has been with me, bringing me comfort because He knows it hurts deeply, even though I know she is in His presence, I miss her and what she brought to my life.

No, I know what it means when a guy orders people to go into a neighboring town to kill everyone except the virgin girls, and then hangs around to smell the blood and enjoy the carnage. It doesn't speak well of this god you worship.

God never said what you claim because you do not understand that somethings in the Bible are metaphors and I explained to you that meaning, it seems you have ignored what I said or stopped reading after the first sentence. If you can't except anything from people who know the things scriptures say then how can you possibly learn anything other than your own biased opinion.

When you say flaws aren't flaws when it's god, that's special pleading. Either jealousy is wrong, or it isn't. You can't just make an arbitrary exception.

Either killing a person is wrong or it isn't. By the above bold by me there would be no exceptions to killing, it all would be murder. So, no, I've not made an arbitrary exception even if the first part of your above reply is correct and it isn't. I never said God has a flaw of any kind that was you and you are wrong. Jealousy is an emotion, a thing that can just pop up even without warning, the wrong in jealousy is how you act upon it and I explained this in my last post to you, again you are not listening but rather acting on your biased opinion.

Apparently there is no stopping him. The world is often a horrible place, and it takes effort to keep going. It doesn't matter if you're the most devout follower of the correct god, your life is just as likely to suck as anyone else's. You'll get the same effect from worshiping Kim Jong Il.

 In that you are completely wrong, "Kim the little fatty," is considered a god in North Korea and worshiping him has gotten his people nothing but trouble, they are starving to death by the tens of thousands every month. Even his military are under nourished as reported by a defector from his army just recently. I on the other hand have a garden blessed by God to provide me with much good food even through the winter months. You are right the world is a horrible place and man has made it this way and we are reaping what we've sown, but the Christians of this world can avoid much of this mess by living for God and keeping out of worldly living. Believe me when I tell you this, I know many Christians who live for God and worry little about the world that is falling apart, they have trust in God to care for them, as I do. We are concerned for those who are lost in the world, If I wasn't I would not be here and because of the debate the Christians had I'm considering leaving soon to re-evaluate if being here is actually worth what I'm missing out on in life.

GC

I don't care for eternal life, or to be judge by someone who is a bigger screwup than I am. So what if he's eternal? That means he's had all the time in the world to get things right, and still hasn't figured it out yet. How much more time are we going to give him before you stop blaming limited people, and start thinking maybe it's him? Maybe he's the problem all along.

Well think about the idea of free will. The victim didn't choose to have something bad happen. But the criminal is taking their free will away from them by forcing them to do something. And your god, who is supposed to be all present, and capable of stopping it, decides the criminal's free will is a higher priority than the victim's. This is why we say that if you see someone committing a crime, and can stop the person without risking your well being doing so, then you're partially responsible. If there's free will in heaven, it's possible for people to choose "wrongly", and get kicked out. It happened before, when a third of the population of angels decided they didn't like how god ran things, despite knowing him perfectly well. So even if I got to heaven, I doubt I'd be staying there for an eternity. I'd just be paying lip service anyway, after all.

If all children go to heaven, and people were really ok with that, then we'd have a lot more people killing kids right after they said the lord's prayer, and got saved. Why take the chance that they change their mind and lose their shot. You're right that Humans wouldn't allow that to happen, because it's a sick thing to think about. Your god allowed it to happen once before, except for saving eight people, and plans to set the world on fire if you believe in the end times. He's a god of blood and death. He doesn't care about anything besides himself. You're only useful to him as a worshiper, and he will kill you and cast you aside if you refuse to do so. Which ironically makes him unworthy of worship.

If part of the bible is a metaphor, what's to keep us from believing the whole thing is a metaphor? Up to and including Yahweh and Jesus?

There are good arguments for killing never being good. And we both know what god thinks of thoughts that just pop up from time to time. That they're apparently as bad as actions. Jealousy stems from low self esteem. Because apparently he doesn't like competing with fake gods, and doesn't think too hard about why Humans would rather worship fake gods than the real one.

Yes, NK is a bad place, and a lot of bad things happen, but for some people, especially those who worship Kimmy, sometimes good things happen. Step out of line, and he'll have you killed or make you disappear, but if you grovel to him enough, he might favor you and give you something nice. That's the same deal with Yahweh. Except we can meet Kim, and prove he exists rather easily.

[Godscreated]

---

Giving God a chance! God has already lived for an eternity and will continue on forevermore. You are the one who needs the chance it's you who needs redemption to have eternal life, not God. God is laying out before you your chance and He could only do that with the death and resurrection of Jesus. You are correct in say God knows what it will take to come to Him and if He has already presented it you have rejected it, maybe you need to look back through the history of your life and see, it is vital to find that calling. If as you say it hasn't happened yet it will and you should be keeping your ears open, the invitation is not something you should miss nor reject. Read the parable of the wedding feast it has information that will help.


The bold by me doesn't really make sense, unless your saying God chooses to punish the evil doer for exercising his free will, well it's sin and sin must be punished. The victim didn't choose to have something bad happen to him by another person, that's what victim means.
There is free will in heave, in heaven we will understand the truth of God and who He is, we will have no desire to chose wrongly in heaven, we will chose to worship God instead because we will completely love Him. This argument atheist throw out when it comes to free will in heaven is no argument at all, you all have no understanding of God's work and who God is, you thus haven't a leg to stand on, why do you think Christians here always reject your claims about free will in heaven it's because that is all they are unfounded opinion. It can't work here because man has a sin nature about him and chooses to submit to the nature of self, now to understand this you might need to do a little Bible study, I've tried to explain it many times and no one seems to get it or they are just ignoring it, I believe it's the later. 


Yes I'm sure I'm not picking and choosing, if I were then I would believe I was perfect and I know for a fact I'm not because I understand what the scriptures teach about me specifically. God has given a commandment of, do not murder and we are to obey that no matter what our intentions are, our intentions may seem correct when they are completely detirmental. Besides if you killed all the babies you would put an end to the human race and God nor man will allow such. You are trying to make an argument out of what God chooses to do with small children, I would think that people would be glad the little ones get into heaven. As for age that would depend on each child's development. Another thing you are over looking, Paul said he would gladly go to an eternal punishment if all the Jews could be saved but he then says this is not a possibility, He understood how god does things.
 God fully understands what it means for people to die, Jesus wept because of Lazarus's death and the effect it had on Martha. I just lost my mom and God has been with me, bringing me comfort because He knows it hurts deeply, even though I know she is in His presence, I miss her and what she brought to my life.


God never said what you claim because you do not understand that somethings in the Bible are metaphors and I explained to you that meaning, it seems you have ignored what I said or stopped reading after the first sentence. If you can't except anything from people who know the things scriptures say then how can you possibly learn anything other than your own biased opinion.


Either killing a person is wrong or it isn't. By the above bold by me there would be no exceptions to killing, it all would be murder. So, no, I've not made an arbitrary exception even if the first part of your above reply is correct and it isn't. I never said God has a flaw of any kind that was you and you are wrong. Jealousy is an emotion, a thing that can just pop up even without warning, the wrong in jealousy is how you act upon it and I explained this in my last post to you, again you are not listening but rather acting on your biased opinion.


 In that you are completely wrong, "Kim the little fatty," is considered a god in North Korea and worshiping him has gotten his people nothing but trouble, they are starving to death by the tens of thousands every month. Even his military are under nourished as reported by a defector from his army just recently. I on the other hand have a garden blessed by God to provide me with much good food even through the winter months. You are right the world is a horrible place and man has made it this way and we are reaping what we've sown, but the Christians of this world can avoid much of this mess by living for God and keeping out of worldly living. Believe me when I tell you this, I know many Christians who live for God and worry little about the world that is falling apart, they have trust in God to care for them, as I do. We are concerned for those who are lost in the world, If I wasn't I would not be here and because of the debate the Christians had I'm considering leaving soon to re-evaluate if being here is actually worth what I'm missing out on in life.

GC

---

I don't care for eternal life, or to be judge by someone who is a bigger screwup than I am. So what if he's eternal? That means he's had all the time in the world to get things right, and still hasn't figured it out yet. How much more time are we going to give him before you stop blaming limited people, and start thinking maybe it's him? Maybe he's the problem all along.

You will have an eternal life nevertheless, the only thing now is where will you spend it. The God who created the universe did not mess-up anything, man screwed it up and man is the only one responsible. God created it perfect in six days and man screwed it up with one disobedient act, and he did so after being warned it would be costly. 

Well think about the idea of free will. The victim didn't choose to have something bad happen. But the criminal is taking their free will away from them by forcing them to do something. And your god, who is supposed to be all present, and capable of stopping it, decides the criminal's free will is a higher priority than the victim's. This is why we say that if you see someone committing a crime, and can stop the person without risking your well being doing so, then you're partially responsible. If there's free will in heaven, it's possible for people to choose "wrongly", and get kicked out. It happened before, when a third of the population of angels decided they didn't like how god ran things, despite knowing him perfectly well. So even if I got to heaven, I doubt I'd be staying there for an eternity. I'd just be paying lip service anyway, after all.

You assume God can just step in and take care of all the world's problems, though He has that power it is not the responsible thing to do. Remember man caused his own problem and has continued down through history. If a parent bails a troubled child out every time it misbehaves and tells it it's okay you didn't mean it, that child will never change and continue in a life of misbehavior. If God bails out everyone from ever kind of bad situation then no one would ever learn to stand on their own two feet. Yes people suffer because man has free will, but it's up to the people to assert laws and punishments to stop such misbehavior. In the end that is what God will be doing, putting an end to all misbehavior. I have no idea why a third of the angels were so dumb as to believe they could over through their creator, bet they are wishing they had not listened to Lucifer knowing the results of their actions. As for your assumption that man will at some point rebel in heaven because he will have free will, what makes you believe that there will be that kind of choices and what makes you think that man who will understand how powerless they would be against the omnipotent God, we'll always have Jesus as a reminder of the price the first time around. 

If all children go to heaven, and people were really ok with that, then we'd have a lot more people killing kids right after they said the lord's prayer, and got saved. Why take the chance that they change their mind and lose their shot. You're right that Humans wouldn't allow that to happen, because it's a sick thing to think about. Your god allowed it to happen once before, except for saving eight people, and plans to set the world on fire if you believe in the end times. He's a god of blood and death. He doesn't care about anything besides himself. You're only useful to him as a worshiper, and he will kill you and cast you aside if you refuse to do so. Which ironically makes him unworthy of worship.

See the bold above by me, this shows you have no idea what being saved is about, not a clue, you are spouting words to have an argument and nothing more. When a person is saved they do not have a license to sin and murder is a sin. If one were willfully sinning by killing children and had no remorse they were never a Christian to start with. That person could have no remorse either because they would believe they were doing a righteous thing. By the way many of the lost in this world that are murdering innocent unborn children are sending to heave a place they do not even believe in.

It's their right to decide, just as it's the right of the unborn to be born, no one has the right to take those choices from them.

Just because you can't understand who God is doesn't mean He fits your idea of who He is. You and all the atheist here need to understand this, when a person is saved they want to worship God because we understand He is worthy of worship and praise. The lost like yourself have no idea and just mumble and moan about those who choose to do so, you haven't a clue about what worship is.  

If part of the bible is a metaphor, what's to keep us from believing the whole thing is a metaphor? Up to and including Yahweh and Jesus?

This is a tired old argument that holds no water, here's why, simply because of so many factual things that are in the Bible and that the Bible has no contradiction even though it was written by many different men separated by over a thousand years.

There are good arguments for killing never being good. And we both know what god thinks of thoughts that just pop up from time to time. That they're apparently as bad as actions. Jealousy stems from low self esteem. Because apparently he doesn't like competing with fake gods, and doesn't think too hard about why Humans would rather worship fake gods than the real one.

When did I say that killing was good, you're trying to paint me in a light that isn't true. Jesus never said anything about thoughts, Jesus was speaking about those who would give serious contemplation of sinful things such as murder. You and the rest of the atheist sure have sorry reasoning skill, especially sad when I think of how you all brag about your skills as reasoners are so much better than that of Christians.

 Who taught you jealousy stems from low self esteem, people are jealous for many reasons that have nothing to do with their self esteem. God understands what worshiping false gods does for/to people, He understands that they will make their own moral codes that are harmful to them and society as a whole. God is our creator and is right in expecting us to be grateful enough to worship Him. Like the Bible says men who follow after false gods do so because of their own desire to sin against the God who created them. I do not know whether you're a father or not, but if you are how would you feel if your child gave the telephone pole out on the street a gift on Sunday and said all hail to you my father tele-pole. Bet that would ruin Father's Day for you, if you are a father that is and I bet jealousy would rage in you in that moment, especially knowing you were a good and faithful father.

Yes, NK is a bad place, and a lot of bad things happen, but for some people, especially those who worship Kimmy, sometimes good things happen. Step out of line, and he'll have you killed or make you disappear, but if you grovel to him enough, he might favor you and give you something nice. That's the same deal with Yahweh. Except we can meet Kim, and prove he exists rather easily.

 Her's where you're wrong, worshiping Kim want even get the people a decent meal (which is a basic human right), let lone something nice. God provides for the lost and saved the same. When it rains on the fields in rains on both, when the sun shines on the fields it shines on both, God is not in the business of playing favorites, but He will do extra for those who will ask, something to think about.

GC

[Chad32]

You would think that a smart person would make a world that was both harder to mess up, and easier to fix if it happened. But all it took was one thing going wrong, and thousand or millions of years later it still isn't fixed yet. So yeah, pretty big mess up, and it can't be all our fault at this point.

It is the responsible thing to to to take care of those who count on you for support. In fact, it should be a requirement. What's the point of worshiping a god, if my life doesn't improve in ways that can't be attributed to anything else? Because of an afterlife that can't be proven? There is no comparison between god and Humans, and a parent and child. This isn't about whether a parent disciplines their child enough. This is about taking care of the child. Not tossing them out into the world for disobeying once. Not blaming everything that goes wrong on the child. Not watching as horrible things happen that are out of that child's control. God is not our heavenly father. Otherwise someone needs to call CPS. Yes, it's up to us to fix these problems, because god can't be bothered to prove he exists, let alone take care of his flock. There will be that sort of choice because that's what free will entails. If there is no choice, there is no free will.

Being saved apparently means asking Jesus for forgiveneess in a serious manner. It can happen on your deathbed, regardless of any action you take. And even if Jesus did recommend acting right, it's obvious that faith trumps actions. Otherwise Jesus wouldn't be the only way into heaven. So yes, you can kill a bunch of saved kids to make sure they don't fall, and then pray to jesus on your deathbed. Or maybe you're right, and the one guy goes to hell safe in the knowledge that he made sure dozens or more people got into heaven in his place. That would be considered a noble sacrifice in the long run. Sort of like when Jesus dies, except even more of a sacrifice because the serial killer doesn't get to go to heaven a few days later. Also why be against abortion at all, then? They're unborn. They get a ticket right to heaven. So in the long run, what's the issue? I guarantee you there are devout christians somewhere that believe just as hard that you have it all wrong, as you believe I have it all wrong. And they read the same bible you do.

There are factual things in the bible, but also many nonfactual and contradictory things. Yes, there are contradictions. It's an easy thing to google.

Yes, Jesus had something to say about thoughts being bad. The old testament also condemns thoughts, as in the tenth commandment. And you must believe killing is good sometimes, because your god has a high kill count and you think he's perfect and righteous.

People can be jealous for multiple reasons, but it stems from a mental weakness. If I had a son, and saw him give a telephone pole a hug and a gift, I'd find it funny. And then start asking myself what is this kid getting from an inanimate object that he isn't getting from me, because if he's being serious, then I'm not being a good and faithful father. I wouldn't be jealous of a telephone pole. That would be idiotic.

There are lots of starving children all around the world that can't get a decent meal, and some of them are likely the children of christians. But I'll bet there are people in NOKO that work directly under Kim that think life is ok. Also god does play favorites. He is supposed to have a chosen people, which is kind of the definition of playing favorites.

[Ravenshire]

God created it perfect in six days and man screwed it up with one disobedient act, and he did so after being warned it would be costly.

GC

Wow. Your gawd's creation was screwed by a single act of disobedience by a lowly mortal? You do understand that's kinda like saying the entire car got screwed up because one valve stem cap came off, right?

Your gawd is a shit designer.

[Chad32]

God created it perfect in six days and man screwed it up with one disobedient act, and he did so after being warned it would be costly.

GC

Wow. Your gawd's creation was screwed by a single act of disobedience by a lowly mortal? You do understand that's kinda like saying the entire car got screwed up because one valve stem cap came off, right?

Your gawd is a shit designer.

Yeah. The spark plug went out, so the engine exploded. Where can I buy one of those cars?

[Godscreated]

God created it perfect in six days and man screwed it up with one disobedient act, and he did so after being warned it would be costly.

GC

Wow. Your gawd's creation was screwed by a single act of disobedience by a lowly mortal? You do understand that's kinda like saying the entire car got screwed up because one valve stem cap came off, right?

Your gawd is a shit designer.

 The act caused the action. A bad oxygen sensor can cost you much money. yet people drive around all the time with bad sensors and have been warned by the system with a litght telling them somethings wrong. God designed a perfect world what has man designed that's perfect.

GC

[Astreja]

 Who are you to judge God, you're a being that has lived for a moment in time and God has lived for an eternity...

Red herring.  An older person is not necessarily right and a younger person is not necessarily wrong.

And according to your Big Book of Judeo-Christian Fairy Tales, I seem to remember a certain magic tree that gave mortals the ability to discern good from evil.  If the consequences of eating from said tree are heritable, I see no reason that the ability to judge good from evil would not also be heritable.

That means that every man, woman and child who has ever lived has an inalienable right to judge your god.