ISIS is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity

[Mister Agenda]

And now, you invade modern culture and claim that it is western?
You do know and realize that "Mocha"; the coffee, is an Islamic discovery, right?
You do know and realize that Ancient Egyptians used perfumes, right?
You do know and realize that Muslims showed Europe the "mirror", right?
You do know and realize that it is Muslims who founded "modern Chemistry", right?
For the reader who want to read more about the achievements of my ancestors, here are they in this great headline from the "independent":
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien...06905.html

Your ancestors achieved great things, but there's nothing there that I hadn't already heard about. I was certainly not under the impression that coffee came from Europe. What does this have to do with anything, and how is it an 'invasion'? If someone doesn't know that the mirror was invented in the Middle East (well before Mohammed's time) it's because they never bothered to look up the origin of mirrors on Wikipedia, not because of an 'invasion'.

[Angrboda]

And even going back to the period you want to arbitrarily declare as true Islam, it's clear who the actual aggressor was. Yes early Muslims were persecuted. Largely after Muhammad, while preaching tolerance, began attacking and maligning non-Muslims and pagans. Upon having his treatment of them turned back upon him, he responded with a double standard that criticizing non-Muslims and pagans was all well and good, but criticizing Muhammad and Allah was not. Eventually this double standard expressed itself through violence and murder once Muhammad and his followers were free of Mecca.

It has often been suggested by Muslims that the persecution encountered was exclusively the result of Muhammad's preaching his new message and his claim to be the last of the prophets. This is not borne out by the facts as reported in the above mentioned Islamic canonical source Ibn Ishaq, Sirat rasul Allah. Muhammad was a troublesome character in more ways than one. One or two examples taken from this early eighth century source will suffice to make our point:

When the apostle openly displayed Islam as God ordered him his people did not withdraw or turn against him, so far as I have heard, until he spoke disparagingly of their gods. When he did that they took great offence and resolved unanimously to treat him as an enemy, except those whom God had protected by Islam from such evil, but they were a despised minority. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 166, 167) 4

They said, ‘O Abu Talib, your nephew has cursed our gods, insulted our religion, mocked our way of life and accused our forefathers of error; either you must stop him or you must let us get at him, for you yourself are in the same position as we are in opposition to him and we will rid you of him.’ (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 167, 168) 5.

Muhammad, who hated derision, derided and insulted others and their beliefs quite freely and made many enemies in his own Qurayshi tribe. We already have the beginnings of religious intolerance despite words to the contrary in the Qur’anic revelations. Muhammad is openly confrontational.

They [the Quraysh] said that they had never known anything like the trouble they had endured from this fellow; he had declared their mode of life foolish, insulted their forefathers, reviled their religion, divided the community, and cursed their gods. What they had borne was past all bearing, or words to that effect (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 183). 7

Jihad - Violence In The Life Of Muhammad From Mecca To Medina

[The Grand Nudger]

And now, you invade modern culture and claim that it is western?

.....?  

You do know and realize that "Mocha"; the coffee, is an Islamic discovery, right?

It's not, lol...it's just one of the many things muslims found to be profitable coming out of africa...like all those slaves, lol.  This would be like claiming that the british "discovered" tea, or that the european conquistadors in N. America "discovered" tobacco.

You do know and realize that Ancient Egyptians used perfumes, right?

As far as we can tell, all cultures have dabbled in fragrance to increase their appeal (or cover their stench, lol).  

You do know and realize that Muslims showed Europe the "mirror", right?

Perhaps you should spend more time looking in one before getting into all this nonsense?

You do know and realize that it is Muslims who founded "modern Chemistry", right?
For the reader who want to read more about the achievements of my ancestors, here are they in this great headline from the "independent":
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien...06905.html

We've been engaging in chemistry since 3k bc.  I'm already familiar with islamic contributions to chemistry,..and in general carrying the torch when europe went another route for a few hundred years.  

So who is having the values of whom?

You clearly have western values, lol.  All the coffee, perfume, and mirrors in the world don't change that fact.  It's just a consequence of how history turned out.

To me, you seem like a cheap copy of Muslims guarded by atomic bombs, and doesn't use water to clean after using the toilet.
We dominated the world once, and the west took our values to escape the dark ages. So please; don't try to turn the table upside down, respect the mind of the reader.

You did....and then you lost it.  This included a huge of amount of western thought..expressed directly and verbatim in your magic book..in addition to the vast stores of near eastern thought.   Then you did your own thing for a few centuries until the empire imploded (like they do).  That's how conquest works.  To the victor go the spoils.

All of this tallying up is pointless anyway. The ummah isn't actually going to win some big dick contest of contribution with the west, and it wouldn't matter if it did anymore than our ability to win the big dick contribution contest means that we didn't get into some nasty shit on the way up. This is something you're clearly ware of when it comes to the great satan...but then For Some Reason™ lose your shit when it comes to Big Mo and his gang.

I don't agree with you. The Prophet -peace be upon him- was known for his skills as a merchant, I'm not. Matter in fact, I suck at business. Moreover, he established a business with his wife -a woman- 1400 years ago, traveled a lot too. I didn't do any of that.

You remind me of a person from this age, comparing himself to a Roman citizen 2000 years ago in terms of technology and feels superior. How sad is that.

So he was good at selling rugs...in addition to raiding and pillaging enemy towns in order to increase his collection of human chattel.  So what?  At least you aren't out there raping and pillaging.  No amount of being able to turn a dime washes away that stain.  

In any case, I'm not a moral relativist. I don't have any trouble saying that we've improved since the 4th century, or that you have improved since the 6th. You don't seem to have much of an issue with pointing out shortcomings either, when you're bitching about whitey....but then, For Some Reason™ you lose your shit when it comes to Big Mo and his gang.

It was a terrible empire, full of dicks. You know that...that's why you feel compelled to engage in revisionism in the first place. Similarly, western imperialism was also terrible, and a history full of dicks. The difference between you and I is that I don't need to bullshit myself or anyone else about that. It wasn't my baby, and I don't go around telling people that slavers and warlords are exemplars of human behavior that we ought to emulate. I see our past mistakes as instructive lessons, you and jihadists both take them as aspirational, lol.

Frankly, had ISIS contented themselves at the summit of their organizational ability with the territory and resources then under their control - it's entirely likely that they could have arisen from the ashes of war as a credible governing authority. Their ambition exceeded their abilities, inspired by a revisionist view of history not at all dissimilar to your own (and that's not the only point of agreement between you, lol), and a belief that they were doing the work of allah entirely like that of the early muslim conquerors. They sought to do what was once done so well - and failed.

The "Israeli Secret Intelligence Service" again..oh boy.

There's another thing you share with ISIS.  Your very islamic certainty that whatever happens, Teh Joos and The Great Satan are to blame. Again, jihadists are people who feel the same way you do, and have decided to do something about it.

[WinterHold]

What happened in the early stages was Islam.  What Muhammad did and preached later is also Islam.  You don't get to whitewash Islam by ignoring the latter and proclaiming the former.

Actually I do, do you agree on being put in the same basket as Hitler ? I mean both of you are non-Muslims.
So you can keep saying to yourself that Islam in Mohammed's time is the same as today, but good luck on explaining the modern Islamic decline.
To make the smart, historians in the crowd chuckle in utter sarcasm, you can also say that early Muslims were as classy and as advanced as modern Muslims.

And now you're moving the goalposts even further by going back further in history to a point when taqiyya ruled out of necessity, not choice.

Taqiya on the internet is for people who have no point.

Taqiya is only valid when somebody fears prosecution. The forum's management do not practice prosecution against Muslims, also the members here are unlikely to cause me physical harm for my ideas. So, technically, I have a point: so I'll say what I believe in your face.

Remember: Taqyia is only valid to practice when you face something very dangerous to your life. Read the definition of this act probably.

Even that early stage of Medinan Islam is not what you paint it to be. Here are David Wood's remarks on the matter:

Let's hear what David has to say:

Notice that the first real battle between Muslims and non-Muslims [the battle of Badr] was a result of non-Muslims trying to protect themselves from Muslims terrorizing their trade routes. [two years after the Constitution of Medina, btw] ... It didn't take long for Muhammad's protectors to realize that they had been duped. Muslims weren't quite the innocent victims they claimed to be.

But how did David forget to mention, that Muslims fled Mecca to Africa because they were tortured, prosecuted and killed by the pagans of Mecca?
So; Mohammed -peace be upon him- returned from Africa -after he and his peaceful followers fled prosecution- to Medinah, organized himself an army, and took the fight -which the pagans of Mecca began- back to their caravans.

The problem is, I quoted the sources in details in my previous reply to you, but you chose "David's" genius and biased remark because you yourself, are a biased genius. Here is my comment again:

==============

https://atheistforums.org/thread-56522-p...pid1816557

Jörmungandr Wrote: We are not speaking about whether early Islam was more like ISIS rather than less so, and instead talking about early Medinan politics? 
But early Medinan politics ARE what early Islam dictated, and in its purest form also. Mohammed -peace be upon him; the prophet- was the leader of these politics, and the constitution he used was the "Quran".

So literally, early "Medinan" politics ARE Islam.

It's well established that the aggressiveness of Muhammed, his fellow Muslims, and his preaching, shifted over time from the early days when they were weak and not influential to when they became stronger and more populous.

And it's also very well established that early Muslims in Mecca were tortured brutally, killed, their women got raped, their money got taken:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_to_Abyssinia

The Migration to Abyssinia (Arabic: الهجرة إلى الحبشة‎, al-hijra ʾilā al-habaša), also known as the First Hegira (Arabic: هِجْرَة‎ hijrah), was an episode in the early history of Islam, where Prophet Muhammad's first followers (the Sahabah) fled from the persecution of the ruling Quraysh tribe of Mecca. They sought refuge in the Christian Kingdom of Aksum, present-day Ethiopia and Eritrea (formerly referred to as Abyssinia, an ancient name whose origin is debated),[1] in 9 BH (613 CE) or 7 BH (615 CE). The Aksumite monarch who received them is known in Islamic sources as the Negus (Arabic: نجاشي‎ najāšī) Ashama ibn Abjar. Modern historians have alternatively identified him with King Armah and Ella Tsaham.[2] Some of the exiles returned to Mecca and made the hijra to Medina with Muhammad, while others remained in Abyssinia until they came to Medina in 628.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_mig..._Abyssinia

Following the migration and return of the most Sahabas from the first migration to Abyssinia (Sa'd ibn abi Waqqas and some did not return but left Abyssinia by sea for preaching overseas to east Asia),[1] the Muslims continued to suffer Persecution by the Meccans.[2] This time, in 6 BH (615 CE) almost one hundred Muslims made a second migration back to Ethiopia where they stayed protected.[3]

After the Muslims in Arabia had migrated to Medina in AH 7 (628/629) [3] and attained security, the Muslims in Ethiopia migrated back to Arabia and reunited with them in Medina [2] after six years absence.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meccan_boy...Hashemites

The Maccan boycott of the Hashemites was a public boycott against the clan of Banu Hashim, declared in 617 by the leaders of Banu Makhzum and Banu Abd-Shams, two important clans of Quraysh. According to tradition, the boycott was carried out in order to put pressure on Banu Hashim to withdraw its protection from Muhammad.[1][2]

The terms imposed on Banu Hashim, as reported by Ibn Ishaq, were "that no one should marry their women nor give women for them to marry; and that no one should either buy from them or sell to them, and when they agreed on that they wrote it in a deed."[3] The boycott lasted for two years but eventually collapsed mainly because it was not achieving its purpose; the boycott had caused extreme privation and the sympathizers within the Quraysh finally united to annul the agreement.[2][4]

...Early Muslims were persecuted and tortured. If that is not enough for you to justify war, then I advice you to burn your current day passport, declare yourself an enemy of your state, and go throw garbage at any soldier you see.

I very much advice also, that you do that to a nuclear plant.

Wikipedia notes, "Muhammad died in June 632 and Abu Bakr was made the Caliph by a shura council....On the first day of his caliphate, Abu Bakr ordered the army of Usama to prepare for march."

My defense stops at Mohammed peace be upon him. What his friends did after him is non of my concern; and I even criticized lots of their actions -including the actions of his own family members like Ali-.

You continue to use sophistry and partial history to attempt to defend your historical revisionism. The history doesn't support you. As demonstrated in an earlier thread, once Muslims gained power, the charade of peace and tolerance was dropped. The "original state" included both. To try to pawn off the former and deny the latter is either dishonest or ignorant. I suspect in your case, since you appear well versed in the history of Islam, it's dishonesty. But then, it could equally as well be that you're simply too stupid to realize the bankrupt nature of your arguments. Which is why I added "crazy" to the list of "stupid and ignorant."

If you got over your biased reading of my words, you won't see them as sophistry.

What I'm saying is simple: "Mohammed -peace be upon him- didn't begin the war".
What I'm asking you is simpler: "isn't it biased to insane degrees, to compare Mohammed to tyrants who burned and skinned children alive, and invented atomic bombs"?

It's beyond me, how could somebody see what Mohammed's enemies did, and what he did, then say: "his enemies are better".
History wise, it is beyond me. Fairness wise it's way way way beyond me.

So, I think David and you don't need to read real history..Muslims were prosecuted to the degree of fleeing to Africa with what they can carry, but you and David do not think that's enough of a reason to go to war.

Poor David is a hypocrite: I understand he needs the youtube views; I have a channel myself.
But why do you?

The problem with attempting to whitewash Muhammad and Islam this way is that you're simply trying to create an ersatz Islam that's not true to original Islam. You're the heretic, not ISIS.

I'm not whitewashing anybody; I'm not a dentist.
I'm reading to you the real history -as it happened-. In this scenario Mohammed -peace be upon him- was tortured -along with all Muslims-, they had to flee prosecution and death, and came back stronger, built the essence of an empire with the help of God, then kicked the shit out of the oppressors and cannibals of Mecca.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_ibn_...alib#Death

Wahshi then slit open his stomach and brought his liver to Hind bint Utbah,[2] whose father Hamza had killed at Badr (see above). Hind chewed Hamza's liver then spat it out. "Then she went and mutilated Hamza and made anklets, necklaces and pendants from his body, and brought them and his liver to Mecca."[2]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_ibn_Abdul-Muttalib#cite_note-Saad3-2][/url]

Congratulations Jor. You and David are defending cannibals, just because they are non-Muslims.
Ain't that an Islamophobe?

I read the rest of David's crap. He didn't mention that Mohammed's enemies were liver-eaters and cannibal barbarians. It looks like that to the likes of David, you only have the right to slit the throats of barbarian cannibals if you were a white Roman. If you're a sand ******, then fuck you.

David is fantastic.

And in before you say you don't consider the hadith, the histories, and tafsir relevant, that's just you again trying to whitewash history by simply denying it.

"Islam's greatest ally in the west is ignorance." You're simply attempting to spread ignorance and disinformation.

No. Islam's greatest ally was the Quran. When the faith in the Quran was replaced, Muslims payed.

---

And now, you invade modern culture and claim that it is western?
You do know and realize that "Mocha"; the coffee, is an Islamic discovery, right?
You do know and realize that Ancient Egyptians used perfumes, right?
You do know and realize that Muslims showed Europe the "mirror", right?
You do know and realize that it is Muslims who founded "modern Chemistry", right?
For the reader who want to read more about the achievements of my ancestors, here are they in this great headline from the "independent":
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien...06905.html

Your ancestors achieved great things, but there's nothing there that I hadn't already heard about. I was certainly not under the impression that coffee came from Europe. What does this have to do with anything, and how is it an 'invasion'? If someone doesn't know that the mirror was invented in the Middle East (well before Mohammed's time) it's because they never bothered to look up the origin of mirrors on Wikipedia, not because of an 'invasion'.

But Khemikal said:

I applaud modern muslims, with their relatively secularized and western values combined with a moderated faith.  It's good to see that they have left the original shape of islam behind...even if guys like ISIS haven't.

I found the sentence quite strange and a big indication that he's suggesting that our values as Muslims, are all taken from the west and from secularism, but mixed with a faith in an Islam made "moderate" to match the western values stolen and taken.

So I wanted to teach him a tiny lesson that his alcohol is made nice with a field Muslims created -Chemistry-, and that he should thank Yemeni Muslims for sharing their Mocha with his ancestors and last but not least -and something new-: that the numbers he uses are actually Arabic numbers.

And eventually, all of us are humans, the only difference between our flesh color depends on the region we are born at + genetics,  so eastern western, or even southern don't really mask the reality of the creature taking control of the body: we are all humans. Our culture is a one long, long string that began at the same point.

[WinterHold]

And even going back to the period you want to arbitrarily declare as true Islam, it's clear who the actual aggressor was.  Yes early Muslims were persecuted.  Largely after Muhammad,

But we are speaking about the time of Mohammed only.
I even told you, that this is the basis of my discussion with you:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-56522-p...pid1816557

Jörmungandr Wrote: We are not speaking about whether early Islam was more like ISIS rather than less so, and instead talking about early Medinan politics? 
But early Medinan politics ARE what early Islam dictated, and in its purest form also. Mohammed -peace be upon him; the prophet- was the leader of these politics, and the constitution he used was the "Quran".

So literally, early "Medinan" politics ARE Islam.

It's well established that the aggressiveness of Muhammed, his fellow Muslims, and his preaching, shifted over time from the early days when they were weak and not influential to when they became stronger and more populous.

And it's also very well established that early Muslims in Mecca were tortured brutally, killed, their women got raped, their money got taken:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_to_Abyssinia

The Migration to Abyssinia (Arabic: الهجرة إلى الحبشة‎, al-hijra ʾilā al-habaša), also known as the First Hegira (Arabic: هِجْرَة‎ hijrah), was an episode in the early history of Islam, where Prophet Muhammad's first followers (the Sahabah) fled from the persecution of the ruling Quraysh tribe of Mecca. They sought refuge in the Christian Kingdom of Aksum, present-day Ethiopia and Eritrea (formerly referred to as Abyssinia, an ancient name whose origin is debated),[1] in 9 BH (613 CE) or 7 BH (615 CE). The Aksumite monarch who received them is known in Islamic sources as the Negus (Arabic: نجاشي‎ najāšī) Ashama ibn Abjar. Modern historians have alternatively identified him with King Armah and Ella Tsaham.[2] Some of the exiles returned to Mecca and made the hijra to Medina with Muhammad, while others remained in Abyssinia until they came to Medina in 628.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_mig..._Abyssinia

Following the migration and return of the most Sahabas from the first migration to Abyssinia (Sa'd ibn abi Waqqas and some did not return but left Abyssinia by sea for preaching overseas to east Asia),[1] the Muslims continued to suffer Persecution by the Meccans.[2] This time, in 6 BH (615 CE) almost one hundred Muslims made a second migration back to Ethiopia where they stayed protected.[3]

After the Muslims in Arabia had migrated to Medina in AH 7 (628/629) [3] and attained security, the Muslims in Ethiopia migrated back to Arabia and reunited with them in Medina [2] after six years absence.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meccan_boy...Hashemites

The Maccan boycott of the Hashemites was a public boycott against the clan of Banu Hashim, declared in 617 by the leaders of Banu Makhzum and Banu Abd-Shams, two important clans of Quraysh. According to tradition, the boycott was carried out in order to put pressure on Banu Hashim to withdraw its protection from Muhammad.[1][2]

The terms imposed on Banu Hashim, as reported by Ibn Ishaq, were "that no one should marry their women nor give women for them to marry; and that no one should either buy from them or sell to them, and when they agreed on that they wrote it in a deed."[3] The boycott lasted for two years but eventually collapsed mainly because it was not achieving its purpose; the boycott had caused extreme privation and the sympathizers within the Quraysh finally united to annul the agreement.[2][4]

...Early Muslims were persecuted and tortured. If that is not enough for you to justify war, then I advice you to burn your current day passport, declare yourself an enemy of your state, and go throw garbage at any soldier you see.

I very much advice also, that you do that to a nuclear plant.

Wikipedia notes, "Muhammad died in June 632 and Abu Bakr was made the Caliph by a shura council....On the first day of his caliphate, Abu Bakr ordered the army of Usama to prepare for march."

My defense stops at Mohammed peace be upon him. What his friends did after him is non of my concern; and I even criticized lots of their actions -including the actions of his own family members like Ali-.

You continue to use sophistry and partial history to attempt to defend your historical revisionism. The history doesn't support you. As demonstrated in an earlier thread, once Muslims gained power, the charade of peace and tolerance was dropped. The "original state" included both. To try to pawn off the former and deny the latter is either dishonest or ignorant. I suspect in your case, since you appear well versed in the history of Islam, it's dishonesty. But then, it could equally as well be that you're simply too stupid to realize the bankrupt nature of your arguments. Which is why I added "crazy" to the list of "stupid and ignorant."

If you got over your biased reading of my words, you won't see them as sophistry.

What I'm saying is simple: "Mohammed -peace be upon him- didn't begin the war".
What I'm asking you is simpler: "isn't it biased to insane degrees, to compare Mohammed to tyrants who burned and skinned children alive, and invented atomic bombs"?

It's beyond me, how could somebody see what Mohammed's enemies did, and what he did, then say: "his enemies are better".
History wise, it is beyond me. Fairness wise it's way way way beyond me.

I enlarged the words that told you that I'm not discussing "later".

Aside from that, let's speak a little bit of history of the Middle East after Islam, since you want to hear about it despite me saying that it's not valid because nobody actually followed the Quran exactly. The following were either Sunna or Shia ! you'll discover now who both sects are

Nobody followed Mohammed, actually his wife went on a rage attack and fought the Prophet's own cousin in the battle of the camel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Camel

This battle is the reason Muslims are Sunnies or Shiites.

Then, kingdoms started to rise and fall. Each kingdom had a dynasty, some grew to empires. One of them saved the world from the Mongols:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut

Big stuff.

Then one of the empires was the Ottoman empire, that saved the world from cont Dracula; Vlad III Dracula:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

Then the Ottomans got crazy, Muslims got defeated in WW1 because they probably didn't know how to fuck the human body like Europeans did; TBH Europeans were evil fucks, I mean just look at the amounts of people killed in WW1 and WW2 !

A comparison between the two (the kids of Vlad and the Turks of Istanbul) can give you lots of indication on who is who..

Not that Muslims were pure. But the Quran have a magical effect on making civilization flourish without radiations like the modern world.

[WinterHold]

And now, you invade modern culture and claim that it is western?

.....? 

... !!

You do know and realize that "Mocha"; the coffee, is an Islamic discovery, right?

It's not, lol...it's just one of the many things muslims found to be profitable coming out of africa...like all those slaves, lol.  This would be like claiming that the british "discovered" tea, or that the european conquistadors in N. America "discovered" tobacco.

Ironically, there's a Yemeni town called "Mocha".

But anything Islamic must be "found by somebody else", "made by somebody else", etc. Because you know, Muslims are worthless, lol. You can bomb them in thousands, rob their oil, burn them down, you know, they are brown !! just like the Mocha they exported to Europe ! I mean these pathetic brown people.



What's more hilarious than Carling's video, is you throwing the fucking white Americans did to African people, enslaving them and blame it on Muslims..just lol

You do know and realize that Ancient Egyptians used perfumes, right?

As far as we can tell, all cultures have dabbled in fragrance to increase their appeal (or cover their stench, lol).  

No, Muslims introduced alcohol into Europe in perfumes.

You do know and realize that Muslims showed Europe the "mirror", right?

Perhaps you should spend more time looking in one before getting into all this nonsense?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_wo...val_Europe

In art, the Book of Optics laid the foundations for the linear perspective technique and may have influenced the use of optical aids in Renaissance art (see Hockney-Falco thesis).[42] These same techniques were later employed in the maps made by European cartographers such as Paolo Toscanelli during the Age of Exploration.[41]

[/url]

You do know and realize that it is Muslims who founded "modern Chemistry", right?
For the reader who want to read more about the achievements of my ancestors, here are they in this great headline from the "independent":
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien...06905.html

We've been engaging in chemistry since 3k bc.  I'm already familiar with islamic contributions to chemistry,..and in general carrying the torch when europe went another route for a few hundred years.  

Mixing water with sugar is different that putting the basis of a scientific field called "Chemistry". Please; read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabir_ibn_Hayyan

He has been described as "the father of early chemistry".[[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions]by whom?][3][4][5]

So who is having the values of whom?

You clearly have western values, lol.  All the coffee, perfume, and mirrors in the world don't change that fact.  It's just a consequence of how history turned out.

No, Western entertainment dominated my life, that's all. And I see western people as humans; not some form of alien beings. Except some people on this forum.

What you clearly don't get, is that life is a cycle. The Romans ended with a dark age, the Arabs by then reached a golden age. And now the compass have turned again. Just as a side note, that's is a proof of God if you think about it.

To me, you seem like a cheap copy of Muslims guarded by atomic bombs, and doesn't use water to clean after using the toilet.
We dominated the world once, and the west took our values to escape the dark ages. So please; don't try to turn the table upside down, respect the mind of the reader.

You did....and then you lost it.  This included a huge of amount of western thought..expressed directly and verbatim in your magic book..in addition to the vast stores of near eastern thought.   Then you did your own thing for a few centuries until the empire imploded (like they do).  That's how conquest works.  To the victor go the spoils.

All of this tallying up is pointless anyway.  The ummah isn't actually going to win some big dick contest of contribution with the west, and it wouldn't matter if it did anymore than our ability to win the big dick contribution contest means that we didn't get into some nasty shit on the way up.  This is something you're clearly ware of when it comes to the great satan...but then For Some Reason™ lose your shit when it comes to Big Mo and his gang.

The Islamic empire(s) after Mohammed peace be upon him, did some pretty terrible mistakes, that's why they fell.
The western superpowers in the past invaded like no other, and emptied whole continents unlike the Muslims -Spain still has Spanish people-. Add to that WW1 and WW2.

The point is here: the western superpowers -especially the U.S- are going to destroy this world via corruption, invasion and cold-eternal wars.

The example of Sweden and Switzerland was not taken by the rest of the superpowers. I don't think Muslims are awake to this.

The west took no spoils. It simply inflated a very big balloon and it's going to explode soon.

I don't agree with you. The Prophet -peace be upon him- was known for his skills as a merchant, I'm not. Matter in fact, I suck at business. Moreover, he established a business with his wife -a woman- 1400 years ago, traveled a lot too. I didn't do any of that.

You remind me of a person from this age, comparing himself to a Roman citizen 2000 years ago in terms of technology and feels superior. How sad is that. So he was good at selling rugs...in addition to raiding and pillaging enemy towns in order to increase his collection of human chattel.  So what?  At least you aren't out there raping and pillaging.  No amount of being able to turn a dime washes away that stain.  

In any case, I'm not a moral relativist. I don't have any trouble saying that we've improved since the 4th century, or that you have improved since the 6th. You don't seem to have much of an issue with pointing out shortcomings either, when you're bitching about whitey....but then, For Some Reason™ you lose your shit when it comes to Big Mo and his gang.

It was a terrible empire, full of dicks. You know that...that's why you feel compelled to engage in revisionism in the first place. Similarly, western imperialism was also terrible, and a history full of dicks. The difference between you and I is that I don't need to bullshit myself or anyone else about that. It wasn't my baby, and I don't go around telling people that slavers and warlords are exemplars of human behavior that we ought to emulate. I see our past mistakes as instructive lessons, you and jihadists both take them as aspirational, lol.

I don't agree with you. The Prophet -peace be upon him- was known for his skills as a merchant, I'm not. Matter in fact, I suck at business. Moreover, he established a business with his wife -a woman- 1400 years ago, traveled a lot too. I didn't do any of that.

You remind me of a person from this age, comparing himself to a Roman citizen 2000 years ago in terms of technology and feels superior. How sad is that.

So he was good at selling rugs...in addition to raiding and pillaging enemy towns in order to increase his collection of human chattel.  So what?  At least you aren't out there raping and pillaging.  No amount of being able to turn a dime washes away that stain.  

In any case, I'm not a moral relativist.  I don't have any trouble saying that we've improved since the 4th century, or that you have improved since the 6th.  You don't seem to have much of an issue with pointing out shortcomings either, when you're bitching about whitey....but then, For Some Reason™ you lose your shit when it comes to Big Mo and his gang.

It was a terrible empire, full of dicks.  You know that...that's why you feel compelled to engage in revisionism in the first place.  Similarly, western imperialism was also terrible, and a history full of dicks.  The difference between you and I is that I don't need to bullshit myself or anyone else about that.  It wasn't my baby, and I don't go around telling people that slavers and warlords are exemplars of human behavior that we ought to emulate.  I see our past mistakes as instructive lessons, you and jihadists both take them as aspirational, lol.

It wasn't a terrible empire. I call the Mongols terrible, the Crusaders terrible, the Imperialist white man terrible, but the Islamic empire had its mistakes which are -compared to all other empires- small. The best nation coming to humanity.

And modern dicks like Assad and the Sauds are supported and kept by the west.

The "Israeli Secret Intelligence Service" again..oh boy.

There's another thing you share with ISIS.  Your very islamic certainty that whatever happens, Teh Joos and The Great Satan are to blame.  Again, jihadists are people who feel the same way you do, and have decided to do something about it.

Not "teh jews"; but "The Zionists". And their lobby in your own country is enough to point to their effect.

[The Grand Nudger]

Ironically, there's a Yemeni town called "Mocha".

But anything Islamic must be "found by somebody else", "made by somebody else", etc. Because you know, Muslims are worthless, lol. You can bomb them in thousands, rob their oil, burn them down, you know, they are brown !! just like the Mocha they exported to Europe ! I mean these pathetic brown people.
What's more hilarious than Carling's video, is you throwing the fucking white Americans did to African people, enslaving them and blame it on Muslims..just lol

The US bought the slaves from the ummah. Revise that shit, lol.

I think that you're confusing me for some low info nubbin.  I see human progress as a team effort.  We can't all sprint all the time.   You're not going to find yourself in a position where you're telling me about some contribution I wasn't already aware of in grade school.  

That's been a pattern with you. Posting common knowledge as though it were the Revealed Word™ and then springboarding from that into utter lunacy.

IDK what to say? I'm sorry that schools are shit were you come from? IDK that this gives you license to loon...but whatevs. : shrugs :

You're unlikely to find a more sympathetic character..on these boards...to islam. Even when it's acting out...than me.

No, Muslims introduced alcohol into Europe in perfumes.

Entirely false.  We've been enjoying alcohol all over the world for 9k of our 50k as fully modern humans, at least.  Scots were making alcohol by 4k bc.  I live in bourbon county USA, I make my own.  It's a straight line there.  What the islamic empire introduced was sterile distillery.  Ever drink rubbing alcohol?

Fuck that noise, you can keep it.

Ditto to the rest of that stupid shit.

No, Western entertainment dominated my life, that's all. And I see western people as humans; not some form of alien beings. Except some people on this forum.

What you clearly don't get, is that life is a cycle. The Romans ended with a dark age, the Arabs by then reached a golden age. And now the compass have turned again. Just as a side note, that's is a proof of God if you think about it.

Entertainment is a vehicle for culture.  That's probably how you became so recognizably western.

The Islamic empire(s) after Mohammed peace be upon him, did some pretty terrible mistakes, that's why they fell.

The islamic empire was formed by what we..and you, today, would call "terrible mistakes".  -Fact.

It wasn't a terrible empire. I call the Mongols terrible, the Crusaders terrible, the Imperialist white man terrible, but the Islamic empire had its mistakes which are -compared to all other empires- small. The best nation coming to humanity.

And modern dicks like Assad and the Sauds are supported and kept by the west.

Yeah sure, I get it, you call everyone else dicks but when Your Guys™ did the same things it was righteous and holy and aspirational.  Western tradition pulls this same shit.

Again...jihadists are people who feel the same way you do, and have decided to do something about it.

Not "teh jews"; but "The Zionists". And their lobby in your own country is enough to point to their effect.

ZIONISTS!!!! Double plus ungood! Fuckin jewy jews!



Hey, guess what, your islamist problem is an islamic problem.  Not a jewish problem.

Big Mo was a dick, people who emulate him...like ISIS does, are dicks. People like you, who retcon and revise? Meh, usually not dicks for the same reason........ but still dicks.

[Fireball]

Ironically, there's a Yemeni town called "Mocha".

But anything Islamic must be "found by somebody else", "made by somebody else", etc. Because you know, Muslims are worthless, lol. You can bomb them in thousands, rob their oil, burn them down, you know, they are brown !! just like the Mocha they exported to Europe ! I mean these pathetic brown people.
What's more hilarious than Carling's video, is you throwing the fucking white Americans did to African people, enslaving them and blame it on Muslims..just lol

The US bought the slaves from the ummah. Revise that shit, lol.

I think that you're confusing me for some low info nubbin.  I see human progress as a team effort.  We can't all sprint all the time.   You;re not going to find yourself in a position where you're telling me about some contribution I wasn't already aware of in grade school.  

No, Muslims introduced alcohol into Europe in perfumes.

Entirely false.  We've been enjoying alcohol all over the world for 9k of our 50k as fully modern humans, at least.  Scots were making alcohol by 4k bc.  I live in bourbon county USA, I make my own.  It's a straight line there.  What the islamic empire introduced was sterile distillery.  Ever drink rubbing alcohol?

Fuck that noise, you can keep it.

Ditto to the rest of that stupid shit.

No, Western entertainment dominated my life, that's all. And I see western people as humans; not some form of alien beings. Except some people on this forum.

What you clearly don't get, is that life is a cycle. The Romans ended with a dark age, the Arabs by then reached a golden age. And now the compass have turned again. Just as a side note, that's is a proof of God if you think about it.

Entertainment is a vehicle for culture.  That's probably how you became so recognizably western.

The Islamic empire(s) after Mohammed peace be upon him, did some pretty terrible mistakes, that's why they fell.

The islamic empire was formed by what we..and you, today, would call "terrible mistakes".  -Fact.

It wasn't a terrible empire. I call the Mongols terrible, the Crusaders terrible, the Imperialist white man terrible, but the Islamic empire had its mistakes which are -compared to all other empires- small. The best nation coming to humanity.

And modern dicks like Assad and the Sauds are supported and kept by the west.

Yeah sure, I get it, you call everyone else dicks but when Your Guys™ did the same things it was righteous and holy and aspirational.  Western tradition pulls this same shit.

Again...jihadists are people who feel the same way you do, and have decided to do something about it.

Not "teh jews"; but "The Zionists". And their lobby in your own country is enough to point to their effect.

ZIONISTS!!!! Double plus ungood! Fuckin jewy jews!



Hey, guess what, your islamist problem is an islamic problem.  Not a jewish problem.

I'd love to live next door to you, if you didn't live in "God's Country"!

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL.  I wish all of yall could be my neighbors, truly!

"Gods" country is gorgeous..that's why I live out here....but it's wasted on the faithful. 

[Deesse23]

I already like this forum. It even has a crazy muslim apologist.