On Hell and Forgiveness

[LadyForCamus]

If God were to appear to everybody everywhere as unmistakably real, undoubtedly a few more people would believe in God and the redemption of Christ than do now.  Perhaps some who believe now would turn away, but it's more sensible to presume that more people who didn't previously turn to God then would do so than would turn away from him.  The consequence of those few turning toward God would result in eternal happiness for them.  The gains are thus infinite.  Moreover, Steve has repeatedly said that people who believe in God are more moral than those who don't.  So this is something that God could do which would be infinitely better for people as a whole, and which he chooses not to do.  So God is choosing a world that is infinitely worse than the one we could have.  How is a hidden God good again?

Cue the ‘God doesn’t want to violate our free will’ argument.

Somehow, acknowledgement and worship doesn’t seem to count for Yahweh unless it’s performed by people who don’t have good, compelling reasons to do so. Slavish credulity, offered as an act of “freedom” is the ridiculous alleged bottom line.

It wouldn’t even be violating free will though.  Every person would still be free to accept or reject god.  At least revealing himself would give everyone a fair shake at making the right choice.

[The Grand Nudger]

Don't we all already have that opportunity, in practice?  We've heard the stories, either we bob our heads in agreement or we don't. For those of us who read magic book and give it a hard pass, the god of that book showing up wouldn't make a lick of difference.

[Amarok]

God has to have all the medals, apparently, so that there is no possibility of a "bigger God" appearing from the shadows. I think that's at the heart of all this.

But that's just the think i can always imagine something more powerful thus the argument fails

[Crossless2.0]

Cue the ‘God doesn’t want to violate our free will’ argument.

Somehow, acknowledgement and worship doesn’t seem to count for Yahweh unless it’s performed by people who don’t have good, compelling reasons to do so. Slavish credulity, offered as an act of “freedom” is the ridiculous alleged bottom line.

It wouldn’t even be violating free will though.  Every person would still be free to accept or reject god.  At least revealing himself would give everyone a fair shake at making the right choice.

I know that; you know that.

But choices made by people in possession of the relevant facts fly in the face of Christians’ absurd salvation story and the ridiculous means by which their god supposedly chose to communicate it to us.

[Angrboda]

Don't we all already have that opportunity, in practice?  We've heard the stories, either we bob our heads in agreement or we don't.  For those of us who read magic book and give it a hard pass, the god of that book showing up wouldn't make a lick of difference.

Some would, some wouldn't. The latter group is what creates the dilemma.

[Amarok]

3. God provided substantial evidence of himself in the person of Jesus and the events of the early first century. This is exactly what you seem to be asking for. God himself lived among us for 33 years and did many miraculous things culminating in the death and resurrection--with has huge existential meaning in both salvation and the possibility of a personal relationship through the Holy Spirit.

Nope their is no good evidence for your fairy tales sorry you have failed to defend this multiple times

[Angrboda]

A god who kills innocent babies for no reason is greater than one who does not. I defy any Christian to prove me objectively wrong.

[Amarok]

God's rationale for his actions are founded in that concept (along with omniscience) and therefore cannot be judged by those that are no so equipped.

That's bullocks dodging we don't need to be all knowing to judge your invisible friends actions this is a cop out so you don't actually have to give explanation of your gods actions and can just kick the can onto unknowable magic intentions found in the circular assumption your god is good .

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A god who kills innocent babies for no reason is greater than one who does not.  I defy any Christian to prove me objectively wrong.

Oh but Jorm you can't judge that because you don't know everything 

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If God exists, it is incoherent to say that God may or may not be just--because you cannot ground such a determination in anything objective.

Nope setting aside your totally arbitrary definition of god .Even if god exist he can be the grounds for nothing objective

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2. Is it not the case that God is hidden from everyone. There are countless testimonies of people's experience of God. There are no defeaters for these billions of experiences so the claim really is: God is hidden from me when atheist demand or surmise that God would show himself if he were real.

Bullocks a bunch of hearsay and" experiences" count for zip on a stick so no the claim is "god is hidden from everyone because nobody can provide objective evidence that it's god so nope it's not me it's we and no i don't need to offer any defeaters to nonsense.

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Libertarian Free Will just means your choices are not causally determined by something outside yourself. Having a nature/characteristic that governs your actions/thoughts does not in any way impinge on free will. Every conceivable conscious being has such influences/limits.

That's not what it means and even if it did what your describing  is nonesense

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Seem to undercut that part of the process.

If god existed he wouldn't need that process now would he?

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You are talking about the concept of what should we expect God to be like or to do. To answer that, we can't start with, "well, if I were God, I would...". We have to infer our list from revealed information, the concept of God, and the natural world.

Nope because no such list exists nor would be needed if god existed

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4. God provides substantial evidence of himself in nature that is easily reflected on and has been for millennium. Why is there something rather than nothing?

The fact there is something is not evidence of god and no the existence of the natural world is not evidence of god sorry that's an assertion not a fact .

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5. God gives everyone a sense of himself.

Assertion

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6. Every bit of evidence suggests that God's purposes are personal in nature. God desires a personal relationship with each person--NOT recognition that he exists.

If only you had any evidence and again assertions

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God's rationale for his actions are founded in that concept (along with omniscience) and therefore cannot be judged by those that are no so equipped.

That's bullocks dodging we don't need to be all knowing to judge your invisible friends actions this is a cop out so you don't actually have to give explanation of your gods actions and can just kick the can onto unknowable magic intentions found in the circular assumption your god is good .

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A god who kills innocent babies for no reason is greater than one who does not.  I defy any Christian to prove me objectively wrong.

Oh but Jorm you can't judge that because you don't know everything 

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If God exists, it is incoherent to say that God may or may not be just--because you cannot ground such a determination in anything objective.

Nope setting aside your totally arbitrary definition of god .Even if god exist he can be the grounds for nothing objective

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2. Is it not the case that God is hidden from everyone. There are countless testimonies of people's experience of God. There are no defeaters for these billions of experiences so the claim really is: God is hidden from me when atheist demand or surmise that God would show himself if he were real.

Bullocks a bunch of hearsay and" experiences" count for zip on a stick so no the claim is "god is hidden from everyone because nobody can provide objective evidence that it's god so nope it's not me it's we and no i don't need to offer any defeaters to nonsense.

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Libertarian Free Will just means your choices are not causally determined by something outside yourself. Having a nature/characteristic that governs your actions/thoughts does not in any way impinge on free will. Every conceivable conscious being has such influences/limits.

That's not what it means and even if it did what your describing  is nonesense

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Seem to undercut that part of the process.

If god existed he wouldn't need that process now would he?

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You are talking about the concept of what should we expect God to be like or to do. To answer that, we can't start with, "well, if I were God, I would...". We have to infer our list from revealed information, the concept of God, and the natural world.

Nope because no such list exists nor would be needed if god existed

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4. God provides substantial evidence of himself in nature that is easily reflected on and has been for millennium. Why is there something rather than nothing?

The fact there is something is not evidence of god and no the existence of the natural world is not evidence of god sorry that's an assertion not a fact .

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5. God gives everyone a sense of himself.

Assertion

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6. Every bit of evidence suggests that God's purposes are personal in nature. God desires a personal relationship with each person--NOT recognition that he exists.

If only you had any evidence and again assertions

Are you really arguing that Gods existence would be dependent on the physical world like ours is? Really?

No but i will deny you the right to simply make up magical shit in the name apologetics

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You would have to show that God could have logically created a universe where everyone would freely choose him. It is clear that is almost certainly not actually possible. So, he settled for a universe where the greatest number of people would freely accept him.

Nope it's you who has to show the contrary.

[robvalue]

A god who kills innocent babies for no reason is greater than one who does not.  I defy any Christian to prove me objectively wrong.

A God that will nip down the shop to get me some bread is greater than the one we have now.

[Amarok]

A god who kills innocent babies for no reason is greater than one who does not.  I defy any Christian to prove me objectively wrong.

A God that will nip down the shop to get me some bread is greater than the one we have now.

But Rob you don't know everything. Surly this is the best of all possible worlds .Freewill blame everything on freewill!!!. Did i miss any apologist cliches.