It's not religion..believe me. It's something else

[The Grand Nudger]

Sure, but we'd support anyone that could deliver on what your current regime does.  We have no particular interest in fucking you, and your being so thoroughly fucked by your government is blatantly in opposition to all of our western ideals about good governance.

Unless we invade your shitty country and kill the headman, that's going to have to be a problem that you solve, yourselves..because it's a you problem.  Get a better headman. That's what we do when we don't like ours.

[Brian37]

Atlass, nobody here thinks we are above it all. 

Do yourself a favor. STOP letting labels, yours or others, get in the way of accepting the fact we are all the same species.

You have often said you hate the government you live under. I have said I was willing to treat you as an individual outside your government.

I DO NOT like all of my country's history. I do not like what we did to Native Americans or blacks or women or Japanese Americans during WW2.

If you point to the west and say we've been cruel, it isn't because every human living in the west is cruel, but because our species can be cruel. 

When that guy threw the shoe at Bush Jr, for example, I completely understood. But I also did not vote for Bush just like you don't like your government.

Try treating humans as individuals. 

Labels do not make an individual automatically only do good, or only do bad. Our species behaviors are not in our labels, but in our evolution. It is still up to individual humans to see others as such.

But it wasn't the mistake of Bush alone. When the invasion of Iraq took place in 2003, Bush and a whole administration had the U.K as an ally, and a whole bunch of Arab governments as allies, and let's not forget the Shiite Iraqies who were the replacement of Saddam Hussein.

The American people didn't move until the economical aftermath broke their back; because of the unjust war and the sectarian disaster the U.S caused in Iraq.

Let's be straight about this: the west stood with the two components that set the Middle East to flames: the Shiites in Iraq, and the Wahhabi Sunnies in Saudi Arabia. The support the U.S gave to these to components was behind their terrible crimes in the region for so long, that if somebody is willing to research what I'm saying.

Where were the American public from this unjust turn of events, caused by their government of choice? the one and only part gaining from the war between Sunnies and Shiites is the western powers, and the missionaries keeping the iron heated.

Even today in 2018, the American public repeats the same action by voting Trump.
It's not a blame game Brian; I do treat everyone as an individual, I don't blame you or label you or judge you. But your labeling of yourself is what I mostly take: you are a human born in the U.S, that doesn't mean you are pro Bush or Trump.

But the last elections show that so many there are not like you. Almost a majority.
And the case of Kashoggi is another evidence

---

Seems like it's your own despots doing that to you at present, but okay.

Supported by the west, especially the Republic zionist regime of Trump -which was favored by almost an Evangelical majority and almost an American majority-.

Populism is the new way, they say

Populism runs Saudi Arabia and Iran too.

Humans are tribal and? 

That is no excuse to give up on humanity. I will never give up on the prospect that there are plenty of individuals worldwide that still see beyond our local labels. If you ignore that, you do yourself a disservice, and you ignore my support of YOU the individual.

Our species has a evolutionary history of protecting that which is local. It is an unfortunate side effect of our species not being able to see that we are NOT a separate species. If I am willing to give you credit for bucking your government and population social norms, then do the me the favor off accepting that I am simply stuck in a different location.

I HATE my species tribal thought, and far too often defaulting to conflict putting that over diplomacy. BUT I will not give up on individuals who can and do see beyond boarders and labels.

[Angrboda]

I'll also point out that theists like Atlas are fond of claiming that the deaths under Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Gang Of Four were motivated by religion.

And whatever else you might say, the Israelli situation, Afghanistan, ISIS, and Sunni and Shi'ite violence are all about religion.

Ultimately it's a pointless argument. Yes, other things besides religion start wars. And yes, nothing as stupid and pointless as a religious war is as common as one.

The former fact doesn't reduce the significance of the latter fact.

[WinterHold]

If you think you're at the top of the world, feel like your horse is too high, this topic is for you.

Hell, you know very well that when people fought, it usually is for money or land. Religious wars ended so long ago, and with the "Mongol Invasion" that dropped so many dead, it was obvious that it is not religion that moves nations

World War 1 was the next huge war, followed by World War 2. and non of them were waged because of religion.

Wrong, two fold. WWI wasnt the next big war after the Mogols in Europe, and after the mongols there was religion causing wars and suffering, big time.

Exhibit A: 30 Years war
As the name suggests, it lasted 30(!!!!) years, was all about religion, fought on german soil with much of europe being involved, killing up to 75% of the local population (iirc it was in total some 25% of the whole population). It wasnt not only about religion, no it was an inter-religious war between cahtholics and protestants (like....hold your breath: shiites and sunnites, that why westerner are rolling their eyes so hard about this conflict). In many aspects it was worse than the mongols (apart from the fact that the mongols never made it to germany, because the Khan died of alcoholism).

The belt buckles of german soldiers in WWI (and WWII) read: "Gott mit uns" (god with us). So much for religion not being a part of WWI.

Here are the world's 5 bloodiest wars in history:

1. World War II: Fought from 1939 to 1945, the Second World War is the deadliest conflict in history, with over 70 million fatalities. ...
   
2. Mongol Conquests: ...
   
3. World War I: ...
   
4. The Manchu Conquest of China: ...
   
5. Napoleonic Wars:
   

Source: -google

search term entered: what is the biggest war in history

Europeans when discussing Muslims, talk a lot about how the Middle East was always fucked up. But what about Europe? wasn't it so dark just a little while ago, the average age in it is 30 or younger? Did Europe forget the "War of the Roses" or the mad campaigns waged by kings ?

War of the roses was a dynastic struggle, and britain learned from it, thats the difference to much of the middle east, its an endless cycle of madness. Yes, europe wasnt very civilized for quite some time in quite some areas. Your point is? That religion doesnt cause wars, or because living conditions were bad, they would have been better with religion?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barons%27_War

I don't think they learned until now. Britain had a long history of wars, either with France or within itself or as a consequence of the imperial expansions. My point is that when you want a war with 30,000,000 casualties, you never go to religion: but you go to the Kuffar -like the Mongols- or the west -WW1 & WW2-.

AtlasS33 Wrote: Isn't it hilarious, to see a European whining about "Islamic Terrorism"? despite his brethren killing Millions in Japan just a few years ago? I mean if you use something monstrous like atomic bombs; what do you except your enemy to come carrying? flowers???

You do not know that hefty discussions about its justification arised in *the west* the day after the first nuke was dropped, and are still going on today?
Whats your point? If americans bomb Iraq, they shouldnt be surprised about terrorists?
I got news for you, we had terrorists (and do have) in Germany since the 70s at least, before any Germany troops fought....oh wait, the german constitution forbids sending german troops to foreign soil to fight. We only send troops to occupy regions, preferably with UN mandates, to suppress violence and terrorism in those areas. German troops arent allowed to engage in attacks, they are limited to self defense. Guess what, terrorists come to Germany to x-mas markets and run over people with Trucks, because of...... what? We had planes hijacked and innocent civilians publicly executed by "people liberation fronts"....why exactly? What have those innocent people done to palestine? What have innocent visitors of a german x-mas market done to deserve to be run over?
Whats the purpose of killing innocent people when innocent people get killed? -1 x -1 = +1? Two wrongs make a good?

I do know that the west has good people in it, and that's what the human race has:good and bad people.
But we are not speaking about the good people now; we are speaking about the criminals that hurt western people before they hurt foreigners; they led Europe and America to a world war once, and now they are doing it again (Trump and his likes).

[Brian37]

Wrong, two fold. WWI wasnt the next big war after the Mogols in Europe, and after the mongols there was religion causing wars and suffering, big time.

Exhibit A: 30 Years war
As the name suggests, it lasted 30(!!!!) years, was all about religion, fought on german soil with much of europe being involved, killing up to 75% of the local population (iirc it was in total some 25% of the whole population). It wasnt not only about religion, no it was an inter-religious war between cahtholics and protestants (like....hold your breath: shiites and sunnites, that why westerner are rolling their eyes so hard about this conflict). In many aspects it was worse than the mongols (apart from the fact that the mongols never made it to germany, because the Khan died of alcoholism).

The belt buckles of german soldiers in WWI (and WWII) read: "Gott mit uns" (god with us). So much for religion not being a part of WWI.

Here are the world's 5 bloodiest wars in history:

1. World War II: Fought from 1939 to 1945, the Second World War is the deadliest conflict in history, with over 70 million fatalities. ...
   
2. Mongol Conquests: ...
   
3. World War I: ...
   
4. The Manchu Conquest of China: ...
   
5. Napoleonic Wars:
   

Source: -google

search term entered: what is the biggest war in history

War of the roses was a dynastic struggle, and britain learned from it, thats the difference to much of the middle east, its an endless cycle of madness. Yes, europe wasnt very civilized for quite some time in quite some areas. Your point is? That religion doesnt cause wars, or because living conditions were bad, they would have been better with religion?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barons%27_War

I don't think they learned until now. Britain had a long history of wars, either with France or within itself or as a consequence of the imperial expansions. My point is that when you want a war with 30,000,000 casualties, you never go to religion: but you go to the Kuffar -like the Mongols- or the west -WW1 & WW2-.

You do not know that hefty discussions about its justification arised in *the west* the day after the first nuke was dropped, and are still going on today?
Whats your point? If americans bomb Iraq, they shouldnt be surprised about terrorists?
I got news for you, we had terrorists (and do have) in Germany since the 70s at least, before any Germany troops fought....oh wait, the german constitution forbids sending german troops to foreign soil to fight. We only send troops to occupy regions, preferably with UN mandates, to suppress violence and terrorism in those areas. German troops arent allowed to engage in attacks, they are limited to self defense. Guess what, terrorists come to Germany to x-mas markets and run over people with Trucks, because of...... what? We had planes hijacked and innocent civilians publicly executed by "people liberation fronts"....why exactly? What have those innocent people done to palestine? What have innocent visitors of a german x-mas market done to deserve to be run over?
Whats the purpose of killing innocent people when innocent people get killed? -1 x -1 = +1? Two wrongs make a good?

I do know that the west has good people in it, and that's what the human race has:good and bad people.
But we are not speaking about the good people now; we are speaking about the criminals that hurt western people before they hurt foreigners; they led Europe and America to a world war once, and now they are doing it again (Trump and his likes).

AGAIN Atlass, I HATE TRUMP TOO, and if you did not notice, Macron, the French PM basically bitch slapped him on the international stage at a memorial honoring the END of the brutality of war. Trump is an authoritarian asshole wannabe, he has more in common with the likes of Putin, Un, the Imams of Iran and your Saudi Ruling family than I do.

I don't like Bibi Nuttyfuckhoo either.  But, I will never lose sight, regardless of our different locations on this planet, that there are STILL plenty of decent humans that can and do see beyond the powers above them.

We as a species would do better collectively to reject tribalism, especially now, when there is no more room for conquest for any side, and especially since we live in an age of mutual destruction and friend and foe alike have nuclear weapons.

[WinterHold]

You're right Atlas, every bad thing ever has been the West.  Muslims have never oppressed or killed other Muslims with the force of an army or government, nope.

No, but this is the time of the west's dominance, and just like they are at the top of the pyramid, we tend to blame them more.

After all the atomic bomb is their invention; not mine.

[The Grand Nudger]

-as is denuclearization.

[Deesse23]

Jesus. F. Christ, this nutbag cant put together a coherent argument and keep it until his next post. He seems to have the attention span of a fruit fly. I am really in doubt that responding to his incoherent ramblings is worth the time.

[Brian37]

I'll also point out that theists like Atlas are fond of claiming that the deaths under Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Gang Of Four were motivated by religion.  

And whatever else you might say, the Israelli situation, Afghanistan, ISIS, and Sunni and Shi'ite violence are all about religion.

Ultimately it's a pointless argument.  Yes, other things besides religion start wars.  And yes, nothing as stupid and pointless as a religious war is as common as one.

The former fact doesn't reduce the significance of the latter fact.

To be fair to Atlass, plenty of Christians and Jews pull the same argument too. 

And they'd all be wrong because religion never left those dictatorships. Dictators are not about oppressing religion as being their only goal, but any and all dissent. Dictators will leave the religious alone if that group kisses their ass. All of them had to pander to religious groups to gain and keep their support.

[GrandizerII]

One side says it's religion. Another side says it's not religion.

How about it's complicated?