Vision and Evolution (A Critique of Dawkins)

[The Grand Nudger]

Model based control offers an explanation for both.

What is johnisms explanation? It’s starting to look like Swiss cheese.

[Abaddon_ire]

Tell us, since you are so interested in mechanisms of action, how did god design the eye?

And, why did he design it with so many issues?

And why did he choose to give better eyes to squids?

[Nay_Sayer]

Evolution has a destination, and a limited number of paths it can get there (too limited in my opinion)

Well, that is a flat out lie.

I sense it's going to be a theme with him.

I've readied the goalposts with casters.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Because evolution is to do with the biological aspects of the world, not the non-biological. You can't undermine the theory with something it's not meant to account for.

Why would consciousness being something different from what is normally accepted be a problem for every physical science


But there's nothing to suggest that the organically "nonliving" can't ever have consciousness. AI might one day have what we could reasonably call consciousness, you never know.

As far as the AI having consciousness,  yup I agree. Although, at that point I would argue that the AI is now alive.

But I guess our disagreement is based on whether or not we agree that evolution assumes biological beings are strictly biological.

[LadyForCamus]

@John 6IX Breezy

Why are you ignoring my questions? Would your god be happy to know you’re a coward about your faith?

[Abaddon_ire]

The set of tenacious views contains items not shared by the set of worthy or accurate views.

Creationism, like evolutionary “destinations” is just such a view.  Initially, this view was very popular, with the arc of life being some line of improvement between an amoeba and the pinnacle of evolutionary achievement.  A Victorian scholar.

What we’ve learned since, not just about biology but also psychology and anthropology, leaves no room whatsoever for this notion, however tenacious, to be worthy or true.

I can only think of two reasons why you think what I'm saying in controversial. The first is wrongly attributing some kind of spiritual meaning, such as fate, to the word destination. The second is holding some kind of anti-deterministic philosophy, in which organisms exist outside of any casual chains.

So dishonest argument from ignorance is all you have? You can't think of an alternative, therefore no alternative exists? That is all you have to offer?

Your position seems odd to me. What does it mean to talk about selection and adaptation if there aren't states at which an organism can or can't be at rest in?

Its very popular in psychology to hold very deterministic views of behavior. Not many believe that an organism could have behaved otherwise than it did. I think psychology leaves very little room for wide open endogenous action. If organism are indeed on a journey, as you say, it is one they take on train tracks.

Journeys do not need to have a destination. Indeed, the most interesting journeys often start out with no destination in mind at all. If you have not done such, then you have not lived.

@John 6IX Breezy

You do realize that even if you could demonstrate that the human eye couldn’t have evolved, that does not constitute a positive argument or evidence for any other alternative hypothesis...yes?

I don't see the point of realizing something that has no effect on the OP, but yes, it seems you understand how theory confirmation and disconfirmation works.

And you seem to not.

[Anomalocaris]

@John 6IX Breezy

Why are you ignoring my questions?  Would your god be happy to know you’re a coward about your faith?

Because in confusion there is divinity.   In clarity there wouldn't be.

[LadyForCamus]

@John 6IX Breezy

Let’s try this another way. You are a Christian on an atheist discussion forum. What does the evolution of the human eye, or the theory of evolution in general, have to do with either Christianity or atheism? In what way is your OP relevant to either? Why aren’t you posting on an evolutionary biology discussion forum?

[John 6IX Breezy]

@John 6IX Breezy

Let’s try this another way. You are a Christian on an atheist discussion forum. What does the evolution of the human eye, or the theory of evolution in general, have to do with either Christianity or atheism? In what way is your OP relevant to either?  Why aren’t you posting on an evolutionary biology discussion forum?

My apologies, I was under the impression that posting on a thread designated for life sciences was sufficient to discuss topics in biology and psychology. If you think the members here are, for whatever reason, not qualified to discuss the subject, then would you be able to recommend an evolutionary biology discussion forum I can go to? I don't know any.

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I can only think of two reasons why you think what I'm saying in controversial. The first is wrongly attributing some kind of spiritual meaning, such as fate, to the word destination. The second is holding some kind of anti-deterministic philosophy, in which organisms exist outside of any casual chains.

So dishonest argument from ignorance is all you have? You can't think of an alternative, therefore no alternative exists? That is all you have to offer?

No, if I can only think of two reasons, then I can only think of two reasons. If I thought no other alternatives exist, then I would have said no other alternatives exist. Reading is challenging, I know, many struggle with it.

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Model based control offers an explanation for both.

What is johnisms explanation?  It’s starting to look like Swiss cheese.

Again, I don't know what Johnism is, nor what Model Based Control is. Feel free to expound on them, or link any useful review articles on the subject. Thanks.

[Nay_Sayer]

@John 6IX Breezy

Let’s try this another way. You are a Christian on an atheist discussion forum. What does the evolution of the human eye, or the theory of evolution in general, have to do with either Christianity or atheism? In what way is your OP relevant to either?  Why aren’t you posting on an evolutionary biology discussion forum?

My apologies, I was under the impression that posting on a thread designated for life sciences was sufficient to discuss topics in biology and psychology. If you think the members here are, for whatever reason, not qualified to discuss the subject, then would you be able to recommend an evolutionary biology discussion forum that is? I haven't found any.

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