How Great Thou Aren't

[tackattack]

I didn't saiy it couldn't ever be used, just that any use of it is morally rebrehensible to me, because as a member of that society I take accountability for what I've done and what I haven't I feel remorseful for.

If God allows all things he can do nothing because he only allows. If he does all things he's culpable for all things and there is no choice and we do nothing. Both of these are inaccurrate and I was trying to show that. I think God helps me because it glorifies Him, it could be very well that I deserve it more or asked mroe but I don't believe either of these. I think he does care for the lost, suffering and sick people, that's who Jesus came to minister to; not the wealthy, fat and satisfied. I've shown that and I believe it to be scriptural. Why does it seem like he doesn't care, because we can't seem to tolerate seeing suffering? IDK. Personally, I think suffering is a necessity of life for growing and learning. It does seem unfair that he helps me when I don't ask and not others when they do. I don't have the whole picture and I know that when he does help me it seems more serendipitous than happenstance. How do you reconcile suffering you don't control?

[ElDinero]

How much growing and learning do you think a starving three year old will get through before they cark it from dysentary? Where is the ministry of Jesus in these regions, and what exactly is it that they're doing?

You don't have the whole picture because there is no picture. If you're able to, take God out of the equation and then try to answer the question of why good things happen to you more often than they happen to these people with far worse problems. I think you'll find that it's decidedly simple to answer if you acknowledge the fact that it has nothing to do with your imaginary friend and everything to do with the circumstances you find yourself in and the people around you.

Did you ever pray for AIDS to be cured by the way? You said something like prayer had always worked for you, so I wondered if you'd got round to helping sort out the world's problems with your hotline to the big guy. Keep me posted on how you're getting on.

[Heather]

It does seem unfair that he helps me when I don't ask and not others when they do. I don't have the whole picture and I know that when he does help me it seems more serendipitous than happenstance. How do you reconcile suffering you don't control?

It's unfair because it's not really happening. If he was an all powerful "god", he would help everyone that asked him for help. He would not selectivity choose which prayers to answer. My favorite quote from a religious person is god answers prayers in three ways, "yes, no or later." WTF? That makes no sense. Then you can say he answers 100% of prayers. What a stupid argument.

I still do not get how people think prayer works. I will never be able to wrap my mind around the fact that people think talking to a skydaddy will help them. You make your own destiny. You control your own fate. No one intervenes in your daily life. Maybe if people would finally accept this, our world would be such a better place as they would take action to improve their lives versus sitting back and waiting for the answered prayers.

I know we've all seen this study but I like to refer to it often... I wish they would do another study on the power of prayer and that it would be all over the news. I guess that would never happen in America though because "In God we Trust."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

[Cinjin]

Although you did answer most of my questions, you did not answer this one: Is your god sitting next to this child? And if he is - why is he watching him suffer and die in horrible misery?

Firstly, your questions.
How so? because by definition a false dilemma is a type of logical fallacy that involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are additional options. There are a myriad of alternative answers you intentionally leave out of your seemingly exhaustive dichotomy. Perhaps he chooses whom to help or when, perhaps it's a lesson, perhaps he enjoys siffering, perhaps he doesn't care... there are truly tons of other alternatives.

No, there are not a myriad of alternative answers for an all-powerful god. Your statement would indeed be fair if you believed in the deist god (a creator of the universe and nothing more) but you do not. Your bible requires adherence to his ability of omnipresence, and what it comes down to is good old fashioned cherry picking. Either god knows all and ignores the suffering or he doesn't know all and just hasn't gotten around to it yet. Furthermore, the idea of teaching lessons or testing people (by the billions) makes your god look even worse. What lesson are you trying to teach a million people born with a face tumor and for that matter how sadistic is it to "test" people with a disease there is no cure for. The "lessons/testing" theory is more damning to your religion than anything else.

But that's really not what I'm getting at is it...
El Deniro understands what my point is. Prayer.
You believe god helps you (that's the cherry pick of his omnipotence) but you ignore the fact that your prayers can do absolutely nothing about feeding Africa and curing aides.

Does your god help you with the simple goings-on of your daily life? sometimes

Point made.

Did god provide you with that ham sandwich you ate at lunch time? no

You do realize this is a lie if you regularly thank him for your food.

Secondly, I feel this is an afront to my pesonal morality, not because I'm offended by the images, but because it's just as bad at anti-abortion protestors carrying around aborted fetuses to throw in people's face. IMO, you should never use another's unintentional suffering as a point to win an argument. Not that I'm unmoved by the human suffering in these photos. Truly it grieves me that I haven't done enough personally to help human suffering.

I'm not attacking you in any way regarding your personal morality. I am (as always) attacking the retarded, illogical ideology of christianity - specifically prayer as it pertains to the supposed omnipotence of your god. The power of prayer does not exist - because he does not exist.

What you're doing here though is not that though. You're attempting to get to the point of God allows everything or God does everything. That is not scriptual exegesis. God clearly doesn't allow or approve of all things. God clearly, while the originating cause, doesn't do everything although he might have the power to. You're creating a false dichotomy intending to shed a negative light on Christianity while Jesus, our example, served the poor and starving food, healed the sick and ministered to the suffering. I think at best it serves to exacerbate how far away from God, humanity (Christianity included) has come from God's standard.

You hit the nail on head here. You said my dichotomy is not scriptural exegesis. In a way you're both wrong and right. The immorality of your god in the scriptures fits perfectly with what we see in the real world. He only gives a shit about the people that jerk him off, you basically admitted this yourself when you wrote:

I think God helps me because it glorifies Him, it could be very well that I deserve it more or asked more...

However, a god that "clearly doesn't allow or approve of all things" is not much of a god and there are certainly millions of christians out there who would call you a heretic for this. Once again, a perfect example of christians cherry picking what you want out of the Bible and offering up your own explanations to save face (your gods face) regarding the unimaginable amount of suffering that goes unchecked on this planet.

"Faith of a mustard seed" my ass.

.....my God may very well be useless, but at least he's useless because he's not here. Yours is just a useless prick because he chooses to be so.

Doesn't matter. The overwhelming evidence shows that there IS NO GOD hanging around on this planet and ignoring studies like the one Heather posted is just very very typical of every religious robot I've ever met.

[Minimalist]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Epicurus

[tackattack]

@Min, pulling out an arguement as old as you I see? I've addressed that satisfactoraly on this site somewhere, I won't point out the fallacies again here.

---

How much growing and learning do you think a starving three year old will get through before they cark it from dysentary? Where is the ministry of Jesus in these regions, and what exactly is it that they're doing?

You don't have the whole picture because there is no picture. If you're able to, take God out of the equation and then try to answer the question of why good things happen to you more often than they happen to these people with far worse problems. I think you'll find that it's decidedly simple to answer if you acknowledge the fact that it has nothing to do with your imaginary friend and everything to do with the circumstances you find yourself in and the people around you.

Did you ever pray for AIDS to be cured by the way? You said something like prayer had always worked for you, so I wondered if you'd got round to helping sort out the world's problems with your hotline to the big guy. Keep me posted on how you're getting on.

---

Without God mental excercise activated- good things happen to me because I make good things happen and because of my enviornment and available resources. Lucky me I guess. To answer your other quesiton no I haven't prayed for AIDS to be cured and don't feel convicted to. LEt's be realistic though, even if I publicly claimed to pray for the cure for AIDS and tomorrow someone published a cure for AIDS, you'd still not give any credit to prayer or God, it would all be for the scientists publishing the cure.

---

It does seem unfair that he helps me when I don't ask and not others when they do. I don't have the whole picture and I know that when he does help me it seems more serendipitous than happenstance. How do you reconcile suffering you don't control?

It's unfair because it's not really happening. If he was an all powerful "god", he would help everyone that asked him for help. He would not selectivity choose which prayers to answer. My favorite quote from a religious person is god answers prayers in three ways, "yes, no or later." WTF? That makes no sense. Then you can say he answers 100% of prayers. What a stupid argument.

I still do not get how people think prayer works. I will never be able to wrap my mind around the fact that people think talking to a skydaddy will help them. You make your own destiny. You control your own fate. No one intervenes in your daily life. Maybe if people would finally accept this, our world would be such a better place as they would take action to improve their lives versus sitting back and waiting for the answered prayers.

I know we've all seen this study but I like to refer to it often... I wish they would do another study on the power of prayer and that it would be all over the news. I guess that would never happen in America though because "In God we Trust."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

---

Firstly, I've never claimed that a scripted prayer (such as you referenced) would ever be effective. I don't ever believe being told what to say to God or how to say it will ever be an effective measurement. secondly, it would be irresponsible for an all powerful god to answer everyone's prayers. Ever seen bruce almighty? Yes, to all doesn't work. I agree people should wait around for an answer they should do anything they can. I, of course, disagree that no one intervenes in your daily life. Certain things break probability and happenstance. Certain answers and urging have no origin in the self. Plus, physically other people are constantly intervening in my life, even though I know you meant God doesn't intervene, thought I'd mention that.

---

Although you did answer most of my questions, you did not answer this one: Is your god sitting next to this child? And if he is - why is he watching him suffer and die in horrible misery?

Firstly, your questions.
How so? because by definition a false dilemma is a type of logical fallacy that involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are additional options. There are a myriad of alternative answers you intentionally leave out of your seemingly exhaustive dichotomy. Perhaps he chooses whom to help or when, perhaps it's a lesson, perhaps he enjoys siffering, perhaps he doesn't care... there are truly tons of other alternatives.

No, there are not a myriad of alternative answers for an all-powerful god. Your statement would indeed be fair if you believed in the deist god (a creator of the universe and nothing more) but you do not. Your bible requires adherence to his ability of omnipresence, and what it comes down to is good old fashioned cherry picking. Either god knows all and ignores the suffering or he doesn't know all and just hasn't gotten around to it yet. Furthermore, the idea of teaching lessons or testing people (by the billions) makes your god look even worse. What lesson are you trying to teach a million people born with a face tumor and for that matter how sadistic is it to "test" people with a disease there is no cure for. The "lessons/testing" theory is more damning to your religion than anything else.

But that's really not what I'm getting at is it...
El Deniro understands what my point is. Prayer.
You believe god helps you (that's the cherry pick of his omnipotence) but you ignore the fact that your prayers can do absolutely nothing about feeding Africa and curing aides.

Does your god help you with the simple goings-on of your daily life? sometimes

Point made.

Did god provide you with that ham sandwich you ate at lunch time? no

You do realize this is a lie if you regularly thank him for your food.

Secondly, I feel this is an afront to my pesonal morality, not because I'm offended by the images, but because it's just as bad at anti-abortion protestors carrying around aborted fetuses to throw in people's face. IMO, you should never use another's unintentional suffering as a point to win an argument. Not that I'm unmoved by the human suffering in these photos. Truly it grieves me that I haven't done enough personally to help human suffering.

I'm not attacking you in any way regarding your personal morality. I am (as always) attacking the retarded, illogical ideology of christianity - specifically prayer as it pertains to the supposed omnipotence of your god. The power of prayer does not exist - because he does not exist.

What you're doing here though is not that though. You're attempting to get to the point of God allows everything or God does everything. That is not scriptual exegesis. God clearly doesn't allow or approve of all things. God clearly, while the originating cause, doesn't do everything although he might have the power to. You're creating a false dichotomy intending to shed a negative light on Christianity while Jesus, our example, served the poor and starving food, healed the sick and ministered to the suffering. I think at best it serves to exacerbate how far away from God, humanity (Christianity included) has come from God's standard.

You hit the nail on head here. You said my dichotomy is not scriptural exegesis. In a way you're both wrong and right. The immorality of your god in the scriptures fits perfectly with what we see in the real world. He only gives a shit about the people that jerk him off, you basically admitted this yourself when you wrote:

I think God helps me because it glorifies Him, it could be very well that I deserve it more or asked more...

However, a god that "clearly doesn't allow or approve of all things" is not much of a god and there are certainly millions of christians out there who would call you a heretic for this. Once again, a perfect example of christians cherry picking what you want out of the Bible and offering up your own explanations to save face (your gods face) regarding the unimaginable amount of suffering that goes unchecked on this planet.

"Faith of a mustard seed" my ass.

.....my God may very well be useless, but at least he's useless because he's not here. Yours is just a useless prick because he chooses to be so.

Doesn't matter. The overwhelming evidence shows that there IS NO GOD hanging around on this planet and ignoring studies like the one Heather posted is just very very typical of every religious robot I've ever met.

---

1- It was not my intent to pass on any of them so I apologize for missing it. Is your god sitting next to this child? Yes.
Why is he watching him suffer and die in horrible misery? I don't know. There are a plethera of reasons (which I think I listed some examples), and I can't speak accurately on his will in that case, as I'm not Him.

2- "You do realize this is a lie if you regularly thank him for your food." I don't thank him for my food. I thank him for my fellowship and family and ask him to bless the time we share together breaking bread.

3- I'm aware you meant no personal afront, just expressing my disgust.

4-If I didn't admit it clear enough for you, God doesn't answer everyone's prayers. I'm not saying that he can't answer everyone's prayers, just that he's selective. I don't personally think it requires a handjob as you put it, but it does at the very least require honest belief. I'm not aware of any Christian (aside from potentially a Catholic) that would call this heresy.

5- I can honestly see your perspective and I agree that to you God is a useless prick , but I don't think it's because he chooses to as much as you refuse to let him be useful.

6- I addressed her study, I've referenced several prayer studies myself, and I did take the time to review this one and you know how much I hate being accused of dodging. At least I'm a good looking robot well at least my wife thinks so !

[Cinjin]

---

1- It was not my intent to pass on any of them so I apologize for missing it. Is your god sitting next to this child? Yes.
Why is he watching him suffer and die in horrible misery? I don't know. There are a plethera of reasons (which I think I listed some examples), and I can't speak accurately on his will in that case, as I'm not Him.

2- "You do realize this is a lie if you regularly thank him for your food." I don't thank him for my food. I thank him for my fellowship and family and ask him to bless the time we share together breaking bread.

3- I'm aware you meant no personal afront, just expressing my disgust.

4-If I didn't admit it clear enough for you, God doesn't answer everyone's prayers. I'm not saying that he can't answer everyone's prayers, just that he's selective. I don't personally think it requires a handjob as you put it, but it does at the very least require honest belief. I'm not aware of any Christian (aside from potentially a Catholic) that would call this heresy.

5- I can honestly see your perspective and I agree that to you God is a useless prick , but I don't think it's because he chooses to as much as you refuse to let him be useful.

6- I addressed her study, I've referenced several prayer studies myself, and I did take the time to review this one and you know how much I hate being accused of dodging. At least I'm a good looking robot well at least my wife thinks so !

---

I wasn't trying to imply that you personally are a robot or that you haven't analyzed a prayer study - I have been using the term "you" in a very general way - referring to all those who share in this belief in the power of prayer.

But basically to wrap it up - let me clarify your position for my own knowledge. Based off of all your posts this is my legitimate attempt to make plain your position in simple point by point.
Do correct me if I'm wrong ...

Your god does hear all prayers.
Your god is everywhere and already knows the dire need even without hearing the prayers.
Your god does not answer all prayers, regardless of their urgency.
Your god is less likely to answer prayers made by people who do not recognize the supposed sacrifice of his son JC.
Your god is more likely to answer prayers that are "more realistic." (Your daily prayers, etc.)
Your god ignores millions of prayers by his own followers. (Obviously there are many christians praying for the relief of the starving throughout Africa... and these prayers are not being answered)



Disturbing really ...
He creates the universe in a moment but diddles with his "favorite" creations like a teenager playing The Sims, choosing who to bless and who to torture ... all before burning them for eternity in hell. What a horrible horrible dictator you worship. Jesus Christ didn't die to save you from hell ... he died to save you from his old man.

[ElDinero]

Without God mental excercise activated- good things happen to me because I make good things happen and because of my enviornment and available resources. Lucky me I guess. To answer your other quesiton no I haven't prayed for AIDS to be cured and don't feel convicted to. LEt's be realistic though, even if I publicly claimed to pray for the cure for AIDS and tomorrow someone published a cure for AIDS, you'd still not give any credit to prayer or God, it would all be for the scientists publishing the cure.

You claimed that your prayers have always been answered successfully. Should your God take as long to figure it out as scientists? Is he all powerful, or is he not? He doesn't need to go into a lab for three years to sort out the problem, surely? You pray, tonight, for all AIDS to disappear instantly. If you really think your prayers are answered all the time, and you continue to pray for trivial stuff for your own benefit instead of things like this, that paints you as a pretty callous, self interested individual. Or, you realise on some level that it doesn't really work and it's just a nice little thing inside your own head that you like to pretend works because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

On another note, are you saying the millions of Christian Africans don't honestly believe? I imagine them starving to death, looking up to the sky, pleading to someone they were told as sincerely as anything not only existed, but was looking out for them and loved them. And the answer is conspicuous by its absence. If you can really claim with a straight face that the being responsible for this is worthy of worship, or just, or good, I have nothing but pity for you.

Still, as long as you get your bonus at work, eh?

[Minimalist]

@Min, pulling out an arguement as old as you I see? I've addressed that satisfactoraly on this site somewhere, I won't point out the fallacies again here.

Tacky, if you did I'm sure I would be as unimpressed by it as I was the first time.

We see over and over that theists do not require "rational" answers to complex problems. They will seize upon any silly idea that crosses their minds...pronounce it "satisfactory" to get their bible-bullshit off whatever hook it has been hung on...pat themselves on the back....and go on their merry way spouting the same old horseshit.

Epicurus is right. If your god exists, he's a useless prick. If he doesn't...well who cares?

[gralbrit79]

I just stumbled across this discussion and found it very interesting. I am a Christian, and I would not say that God sits by doing nothing for the suffering of people all over the world, but rather we do. Maybe if we (by “we” I mean Christians and myself included and for that matter people who simply care for others) would care for people the way Jesus did maybe we would not see so many of these pictures. It would seem too many people are filled with indifference to the world around them. Maybe God is doing something to help those people, he is filling this world with logical and caring people who can give aid to those who are hurting, hungry, marginalized and oppressed. In first John Jesus says if you say you love God and see a brother or sister in need and do nothing to help them you cannot say you love God. I would say the problem lies not with God but rather his people.