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The idea of God always existing
March 7, 2012 at 5:47 pm
In the debate of whether or not God exists God is stated, according to the Cosmological Argument, as the first uncaused cause. Part of the reason for this argument is the idea that infinite regression is impossible in many people's minds.
However if God has always existed then you are arguing at a point in infinite God simply decided he was finally bored enough to create reality. The beginning of existence period apparently has always been here because God has always been here. The problem with making this argument is it actually makes the idea of matter always existing seem even more valid. If God always existed without beginning, always had his qualities inherent to his nature, etc then why is he the only thing that could do that?
Besides pure speculation I, so far, have never seen anyone able to prove why God has this idea exclusively. As far as the idea of cause and effect we are speaking about a time before the universe supposedly existed. If that is the case then the laws that are INSIDE of our universe may not have existed either. If that is true then perhaps the idea of cause and effect is even thrown out. Before I get attacked for that remember that Christian's argue that God isn't under the constraints of cause and effect and is therefore uncaused.
However if we are speaking pre-universe then if there was matter/energy outside of our universe's existence and therefore outside of our laws the matter/energy doesn't have to play by the rules either. All of this ends up turning into mental masturbation though because it has yet to be proven there is ANYTHING outside of our universe anyway. The biblical text does not provide the Christian with anything to point to in order to explain this issue. I have so far heard most often that God always existed because, well he just did. That is not a sufficient answer and you can also, unknown to William Lane Craig, not simply philosophize something into existence because you really want it to be true.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 7, 2012 at 6:15 pm
The eternal first cause is a case of special pleading.
IE,EVERYTHING must have a cause! (except God who is the one special exception) The argument is nonsense.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 7, 2012 at 6:32 pm
(March 7, 2012 at 5:47 pm)Voltair Wrote: If God always existed without beginning, always had his qualities inherent to his nature, etc then why is he the only thing that could do that?
It's called "special pleading." I love to see Christians squirm when you point this out to them. I have yet to hear an answer to "who or what created God?"
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 7, 2012 at 6:47 pm
God created the Universe. But if god could have always existed without beginning, then why couldn't the Universe have always existed without a beginning? If so, no need for a god.
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 7, 2012 at 6:48 pm
(March 7, 2012 at 6:15 pm)padraic Wrote: The eternal first cause is a case of special pleading.
IE,EVERYTHING must have a cause! (except God who is the one special exception) The argument is nonsense.
Nonsense never stopped the idiots before, Pad.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 7, 2012 at 6:51 pm
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2012 at 6:53 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
I guess I'm guilty of doing philosophy...
An interviewer once asked Carl Sagan where the universe came from if not from God. Sagan replied, “If you say the universe came from God, the next question is ‘where did God come from?’ If you then say ‘God always existed’ then why not save a step and say the universe always existed.” Occam’s razor at its finest!
Modern science teaches us that the universe began in a “big bang.” Most theists would point to this and say, “See! Something had to be before the big bang.” They fail to understand that there wasn’t any time or space before the big bang.
The first source of confusion follows from thinking effective cause (cause and effect) is the only kind of cause. Aristotle also identified Material Cause, Formal Cause and Final Cause. The Scholastics adapted these ideas to theology. Prior means that, in order to exist at all, the physical world depends upon these causes. They are pre-conditions for physical reality, the inviolate Rule from which the particular rules governing the physical universe derive.
The second source of confusion follows from thinking of the physical universe as existing apart from the creator. Out of nothing, nothing comes. That rules out creation ex nihilo. If God created a separate creation then you would have two entities: God and his creation. God plus the creation would make an entity greater than either God or the creation alone. Such a god would be less that the totality and therefore not the actual Supreme Being. From this it follows that no god could create a universe from nothing nor could a god make something outside of itself. Therefore all of creation including the known universe occurs within the totality. This totality is God.
This position is known a Panentheism, which is slightly different than Pantheism.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 7, 2012 at 6:51 pm
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2012 at 6:52 pm by Anomalocaris.)
If nonsense stopped idiots, where wouldn't be idiots like Chatwooter.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 7, 2012 at 6:55 pm
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2012 at 6:58 pm by Mystic.)
Rebuttal:
God's will is deemed eternal, so there wouldn't be a point of time in change.
If time began to exist, there wouldn't infinite time before that at which of a random point, God decided to create. God would be the "beginning", the first point, with time effecting him not, and be creator of time (rather then time existing with him eternally).
There is philosophical and scientific arguments against infinite regression.
Uncaused cause would not be special pleading but a logical conclusion, if infinite regress is proven to be illogical.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 7, 2012 at 7:02 pm
(March 7, 2012 at 6:55 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Rebuttal:
God's will is deemed eternal, so there wouldn't be a point of time in change.
If time began to exist, there wouldn't infinite time before that at which of a random point, God decided to create. God would be the "beginning", the first point, with time effecting him not, and be creator of time (rather then time existing with him eternally).
There is philosophical and scientific arguments against infinite regression.
Uncaused cause would not be special pleading but a logical conclusion, if infinite regress is proven to be illogical.
So how did the first point come into being? And in what way this this first point shown to be worth praying to?
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 7, 2012 at 7:06 pm
I find it interesting that Torah begins with the second Hebrew letter "Bet" not the "Aleph." Meaning there's a back-story to the Genesis account.
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