Can God love?

[Faith No More]

At the end, people WANT to LIVE and are HAPPY that they are ALIVE.

And here you go precisely proving my point that you only see one side of things. Many people do not want to live and are miserable that they are alive.

Life itself is a huge grace. Now arguing but a loving God would not allow suffering to me is like a child way of thinking. A child loves toys not realizing that one day he will grow out of that.

So it is childish for me to believe that an all-loving god wouldn't kill kids with cancer?

[Mystic]

And here you go precisely proving my point that you only see one side of things. Many people do not want to live and are miserable that they are alive.

When I say people, I am generalizing most people. I understand some people want to commit suicide, but generally people don't and are glad they are alive.

So it is childish for me to believe that an all-loving god wouldn't kill kids with cancer?

No it's not childish, I was stating child like as in analogy, that you see things short sited as a child does. The analogy if you read further was stating we perhaps are growing out of what we are. So compared to what we are in the future, it's like we thought of children.

With diseases and illness there becomes medicine. There is scientists whom research to find solutions.

This itself gives opportunity to society and individuals. A person might become a scientist to help stop cancer.

It also put's on the sport the resolve and patience of the individual suffering from cancer, and the family around that person.

At the end, in the long run, if the individuals suffered honourably, their sufferring is not in vain.

Now you mentioned children. Even Children can act honorably and develop their character.

I admit children dying is a good argument against developing character argument, because they are not given the opportunity for that to the extent of others, but, again, this may not be the only world to develop character.

Perhaps there is a continuance of worlds were our will will be pushed to develop honourable traits.

[Welsh cake]

I myself believe God has a compassionate type love even towards those whom are evil. As for the good people, he loves them in a more special way. And yet for the heroic gems amongst people, there is an even more special type love, and the world was set up to give opportunity for such people to shine.

To that I'd say fuck god. I'd rather be extinguished than play his sick little game.

Fucking god concepts devalue, belittle and bastardise the word "love". >.>

[Greatest I am]

As long as that life loves, honours, worships and obeys him.
If not then that love and grace turns to hate and endless torture.

His unconditional love then comes with many conditions. Right?

I myself believe God has a compassionate type love even towards those whom are evil. As for the good people, he loves them in a more special way. And yet for the heroic gems amongst people, there is an even more special type love, and the world was set up to give opportunity for such people to shine.

I see. So to you, endless torture is a show of love.

Sick.

Regards
DL

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I did not agree with M K either but would need a further explanation to agree with your words.

Care to expand to make me understand how creating life is sadistic and apathetic?

No argument that what God is doing with life immoral and sadistic but the creation of it seems to me to be a good thing. I am quite pleased that natures created me and she is not sadistic or apathetic.

I didn't necessarily mean that creating life is sadistic and apathetic, but one could interpret the way that life was created was sadistic and apthetic. It seems that a necessity to life is to suffer, and pain is inevtiable. Something I believe an all-loving, all-powerful god would not allow.

My overall point was really that there are two sides to this coin, and that the fact that there is beauty in life, wouldn't necessarily mean that creation was necessarily an act of love. I'm not saying that if a creator was proven to exist that the state of our existence proves that the act of creation was sadistic, it just doesn't prove that it was an act of love either.

I think I understand your view then and yoiur resentment of the presence of evil.


Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.



Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks where it belongs. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be.

Regards
DL

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At the end, people WANT to LIVE and are HAPPY that they are ALIVE. If life was so terrible, then people wouldn't want to live neither would they want to have children. Even in poor places where people have a hard time living, people are glad to be alive.

Life itself is a huge grace. Now arguing but a loving God would not allow suffering to me is like a child way of thinking. A child loves toys not realizing that one day he will grow out of that.

Whom is to say we are not developing towards something great? Towards divinity even perhaps. At least some people maybe.

Perhaps to develop towards that, we need a worlds of sufferring, adversity, where our compassion and love is put on the spot, where patience and courage is put on the spot, where forbearance and mercy is put on the spot...

Perhaps the next life is not this utopia people imagine, but we will continue in a world of problems and adversity, to keep on pushing our moral character to develop.

That is the purpose of man's life yes but it has nothing to do with God or his laws that secular governments have wisely rejected for better laws.

Would you prefer to live by the laws of your genocidal God or the laws of men who think genocide is evil?

Regards
DL

[Mystic]

Greatest I am

I don't believe in hell or any religion for that matter.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Greatest I am

I don't believe in hell or any religion for that matter.

Without doctrine, what therefore is your basis for believing in god?

[Mystic]

Without doctrine, what therefore is your basis for believing in god?

Well I believe I have been given knowledge of God in a properly basic manner. I've explained this before and people differing about properly basic knowledge doesn't mean it cannot exist.

I also believe I can witness my soul existing, and that it's not simply an assembly of material things giving me existence, but that I'm immaterial and of a unified substance. The existence of a soul lends itself obviously to believe in a supernatural creator.

I also believe morality points to being eternally based, without that quality, it would be arbitrary and a delusion, which we know it's not, by our very knowledge of it, and also it points towards ultimate authority to the highest possible degree which to me can only be God, because he is the Ultimate Highest possible degree. I also believe greatness and honour must be eternally based.

I also believe infinite regress is proven false, which means a first cause, which I don't believe something material can give rise to time and the laws that come with time. While this notion doesn't prove God, it does lend strongly to the idea, when looking at creation, our morality, fruits, friendship, emotions, love, etc, that Moral Creator exists, which lends the idea there is a strong possibility we would have been given some sort of knowledge of him. This supports the notion (although not conclusively) that I do have properly basic knowledge of God.

Some more reasons is that I don't believe everything that exists could have came out of natural means. Of these things is consciousness. I don't think conciousness could have emerged from non-consciousness. I don't think there is any way natural selection and mutations lead towards that. It's not heading towards that direction by any means. There has to be a step between consciousness and non-consciousness, but I don't believe evolution can produce that. The same is true of some other things in nature.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Well I believe I have been given knowledge of God in a properly basic manner. I've explained this before and people differing about properly basic knowledge doesn't mean it cannot exist.

Please explain what information you have been given about god in a properly basic manner. Also, can you prove it?

I also believe I can witness my soul existing, and that it's not simply an assembly of material things giving me existence, but that I'm immaterial and of a unified substance. The existence of a soul lends itself obviously to believe in a supernatural creator.

Please explain to me how you can witness your soul existing. Can you prove it?

I also believe morality points to being eternally based, without that quality, it would be arbitrary and a delusion, which we know it's not, by our very knowledge of it, and also it points towards ultimate authority to the highest possible degree which to me can only be God, because he is the Ultimate Highest possible degree. I also believe greatness and honour must be eternally based.

It is nonsense to believe that morality is god given. If god was disproven tomorrow, then what would you say. Morality is the sum of human existence and interaction.

I also believe infinite regress is proven false, which means a first cause, which I don't believe something material can give rise to time and the laws that come with time. While this notion doesn't prove God, it does lend strongly to the idea, when looking at creation, our morality, fruits, friendship, emotions, love, etc, that Moral Creator exists, which lends the idea there is a strong possibility we would have been given some sort of knowledge of him. This supports the notion (although not conclusively) that I do have properly basic knowledge of God.

There are strong arguments against first cause whether you think infinite regress is false or not. The problem with first cause is always going to be that "something" needs to cause the first cause, but what caused that "something"? Oh well that "something" must be eternal people say (a pure guess, and nothing like an explanation). The obvious counter argument is that if "something" was eternal that caused the universe, why couldn't the universe just be eternal itself, therefore no first cause, no need for god.

Then you have the latest thinking of Hawking and Krauss, who note that the energy in the universe has an equal amount of negative energy, therefore the sum total of the energy in the universe is 0. Nothing. The universe is nothing. If there was literally nothing before the big bang, it doesn't matter because it still is nothing now. No need for god.

Some more reasons is that I don't believe everything that exists could have came out of natural means. Of these things is consciousness. I don't think conciousness could have emerged from non-consciousness.

You might not think it but it doesn't make you right. Surely consciousness is the product of your brain interpreting it's senses? I don't know I could be wrong.

As soon as creatures had senses I don't think there is any way natural selection and mutations lead towards that. It's not heading towards that direction by any means. There has to be a step between consciousness and non-consciousness, but I don't believe evolution can produce that.

If I can believe that my DNA in my cells due to evolution can build me to the blueprint of "me" without completely fucking up and making me a satsuma with an improbable green ear because they misread the plans, I can also believe that evolution can produce consciousness.

Really what you are saying is you find it hard to believe that such complex things can evolve without a creator.

What we and everything else are on this planet is due to gazillions of interactions of gazillions of things over a ridiculous length of time all doing individual things that furthered their survival, having a knock on effect. I find it harder to believe that ONE being did all that. And that's just on this blue speck in a huge universe.

[Greatest I am]

Greatest I am

I don't believe in hell or any religion for that matter.

Ok and good.
I was thrown of by your "Towards divinity even perhaps."

I read your reply to Norfolk after writing the above.

I see that you have created a God of the gaps to feed your beliefs.

Tsk, tsk.

You do not believe in a hell. Does that mean you also do not believe in a heaven?

I am not harassing you BTW. I am a Gnostic Christian and also have a belief in a Godhead but it is just not like your God of the gaps.

Regards
DL

[jess_essential]

I personally do not believe in either the concept of a place full of sunshine and angels, nor a place of fiery depths and erupting valcanos of repeated death. They're both quite far fetched.