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Praying for others?
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Yes it does. Unless he knows every possible different future, and therefore he does not know THE future.
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
 
H0ary H0bbit Religious Views: “Never to suffer would never to have been blessed.” - Edgar Allan Poe
God (I'm just talking about the Christian God) is defined as existing outside of time. The beginning and end of time are already known by (him), and all our choices already known. We all have our own choice, the fact that God knows what they will be does not make them any less a choice.
So yes God already does know the future. 
So you are saying that they are choices in your view...it's just that they are not "free" choices, right? (At least from what you've told me before).
In which case it's just whether you'd call that a "choice" or not if it's not "free", so it comes down to terminology then, right? EvF  RE: Praying for others?
September 3, 2009 at 6:10 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2009 at 6:14 pm by dry land fish.)
(September 3, 2009 at 6:00 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: God (I'm just talking about the Christian God) is defined as existing outside of time. The beginning and end of time are already known by (him), and all our choices already known. We all have our own choice, the fact that God knows what they will be does not make them any less a choice.  Chameleon: I think the person who said they would pray for me was praying for me to become Christian. That would mean that it "worked" if I came into work and said I had suddenly became a person of faith. What they don't get is that there is no will of God. We all make things happen ourselves and that's it. Those who say they do it to be smug are correct too. I do believe that some people are so into it that they truly believe there is a heaven and maybe they get upset at the thought of their friends and family not being with them forever. I can see where that would upset someone who believed that there is life after death.
Me? I say that if there is only one future, and he knows everything that will happen in it, then it also means that every "choice" will occur in a set order, and we have no free will to change our fate.
If there are multiple futures (as i think), and he knows what will happen in each of them, then he does not know THE future, because there is more than one, and they differ from each other. Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
 ![[Image: n11711483_31872101_8692.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.religionbegone.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F12%2Fn11711483_31872101_8692.jpg)
Oh this reminds me of something I said to some people and they completely bashed me for it. A man in my community was injured horribly bad. Everyone kept saying "i'll pray for you" and even the family said "please pray for our family". I suggested they should stop praying and do something for them if they really cared. I suggested they should offer to do their laundry, cook them some food, clean up their house, get some groceries...whatever. Everyone was so offended that I said that they should actually DO something. Even the family was offended. Idiots.
 (September 3, 2009 at 6:48 pm)dry land fish Wrote: Oh this reminds me of something I said to some people and they completely bashed me for it. A man in my community was injured horribly bad. Everyone kept saying "i'll pray for you" and even the family said "please pray for our family". I suggested they should stop praying and do something for them if they really cared. I suggested they should offer to do their laundry, cook them some food, clean up their house, get some groceries...whatever. Everyone was so offended that I said that they should actually DO something. Even the family was offended. Idiots. "What? You mean you want us to actually do something? Physically exert ourselves?? Are you fucking insane?!!"
H0ary H0bbit Religious Views: “Never to suffer would never to have been blessed.” - Edgar Allan Poe RE: Praying for others?
September 3, 2009 at 6:51 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2009 at 6:53 pm by fr0d0.)
@ Saerules: You clearly have full freedom to choose do you not?
Imagine you are God and a my life is a marker pen in your hand. This pen in your hand is a representation of the timeline of my life. As you are God, and existent outside of time, you can look at it at the micro level at any point you choose. You can also zoom out and view it as a whole, or in any way you choose. My linear life follows it's course and I am making choices as I am free to do. To you, an entity outside of time, my timeline is not multiple. It cannot be. I live my life and make my choices as only a linear being can. You suggest that time is linear but not knowable to God. How can that be.. with God able to look at your life from the finish point? Please explain because your point seems illogical. From a christian perspective you are absolutely correct DLF. The primary course of action should have been to offer practical support. They really are stupid in your neck of the woods aren't they!
I think Fr0d0 is equating to arguing for the compatibilist sense of 'free will' I believe, meaning free 'choice' that is compatible with determinism, so even if God knows the future, free will still works in the compatiblist sense.
Does that make sense fr0d0? I myself just wouldn't call that kind of freedom "free will", which is why I reject the compatabilist sense of it as well. I think we have 'freedom', and we have wills of course, but I don't think our wills themselves are free. EvF |
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