Prayer?

[The Grand Nudger]

We're given the days of creation, and we're given the years of Adams life. Not that either of these numbers means much to me, because they're bullshit. I'm wondering why they are insufficient for you?
(feel free to insert whatever extra-biblical excuse you like for these numbers -I know there are a few-)

[Cyberman]

Ok. You sent me to page one on this thread, sort of a text-based time loop. I have no idea what you were trying to tell me by doing this, so if you could hand whatever point you were aiming for on a plate for me, I'll be thankful. Then you can tell me what all this was about.

Oh, and Waddingtons. There, made you laugh.

The point I was making was to prove you were apart of a 43 page discussion about how long adam and eve could have potentially remained in the garden and why. then when this came up again in this thread it was as if someone rebooted you and did not save any of the pervious work.

Oh I see; you were being a smartarse. Ok, I can play that game too. It's taken 43 pages to get to where A&E could have been imprisoned in their garden for trillions of years, just because the bible story doesn't give a number? Well then, this is just another point which shows that the story and characters involved therein - including the biblegod - have no connection with reality, a.k.a. the Universe in which we actually live, at least as far as your interpretation allows.

We only have around fourteen and a half thousand million years to play with, and the Earth has only been around for the last four and a half thousand million years of that. Out of that period, our species has only been around for something like two hundred thousand years.

Whether you take the word trillion to mean (n)000,000,000,000 or the mathematically more correct (n)000,000,000,000,000,000 - where (n) is whatever number your arse dispenses - reality is shaking its head at you in pity.

[Drich]

The point I was making was to prove you were apart of a 43 page discussion about how long adam and eve could have potentially remained in the garden and why. then when this came up again in this thread it was as if someone rebooted you and did not save any of the pervious work.

Oh I see; you were being a smartarse. Ok, I can play that game too. It's taken 43 pages to get to where A&E could have been imprisoned in their garden for trillions of years, just because the bible story doesn't give a number? Well then, this is just another point which shows that the story and characters involved therein - including the biblegod - have no connection with reality, a.k.a. the Universe in which we actually live, at least as far as your interpretation allows.

We only have around fourteen and a half thousand million years to play with, and the Earth has only been around for the last four and a half thousand million years of that. Out of that period, our species has only been around for something like two hundred thousand years.

Whether you take the word trillion to mean (n)000,000,000,000 or the mathematically more correct (n)000,000,000,000,000,000 - where (n) is whatever number your arse dispenses - reality is shaking its head at you in pity.

As I explained earilier 'Trillion' is a silly concept/number but if you insist on putting into an mathmatical equasion (still all of which was already mentioned in a perveious explaination) "trillion" (N) is what ever number or how many ever zeros you want to put on the time span between the 6 litteral days of creation and the fall of man that happened around 6000 years ago. so no matter how long you need to put between yourself and the dawn of creation, for the sake of my arguement 'trillion' (N) is that number.

Probably because i can not picture any thing larger without getting lost in the numbers. (It's my upper limit)

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We're given the days of creation, and we're given the years of Adams life. Not that either of these numbers means much to me, because they're bullshit. I'm wondering why they are insufficient for you?
(feel free to insert whatever extra-biblical excuse you like for these numbers -I know there are a few-)

We've had this discussion already, have you reset and forgotten your part in beating the dead horse as well? Here is the refresher:

Evolved man or "monkey man" is man without a soul, and In the Garden Man created in the image of God, would be man with a soul. That would leave room for whole complete fossil record that could not biblically be reconciled. It also explains the city Cain moved to and the wives and husbands the children of Adam and Eve took for themselves. (They intermingled with monkey man/woman and pass their gift onto their children.)

Now I know the goto verse to disprove this is in Genesis 5:4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

In the English it seems that Adam's total existence was 930 years. But when we look at the Hebrew the word that is translated "lived" is:Chaya it means:1) to live, have life, remain alive, sustain life etc... (In short Mortal life)

At the fall Adam's eternal existence with God died as promised in Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

When they were exiled they were given "Chay" which means a Mortal life, of plants, of animals, dependent on water.
Genesis 3:
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.

At this point Adam's immortality ended and his clock started on his 930 years. These were all of the days He spent on THIS Earth. (not the Garden/Presents of God/Heaven)


How do we know they were immortal in the Garden with God? because of Genesis 2:16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;

Amongest those trees was the tree of life. What did the tree of life do?

Genesis 3:22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

[Skepsis]

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So, none what?

No experience with deceit.

...that is what evolutionist still believe, and say they can provide 'evidence' for the trillions of years between creation and the fall of man. (about 6000 years ago) So appearently yes really. (Even though between you and me it sounds alittle far fetched)

Dude... where in the name of Cthulhu are you talking about? If an "evolutionist" is a person who believes evolution to be scientific theory, then I guess I am one. If an evolutionist is a person that believes the universe to be trillions of years old while simultaneously being 6,000 years old, that the universe was created, and that Adam and Eve existed, then I am surely not one and I might be so bold as to say that nobody is one. Seriously? Is this the extent of your knowledge on biological and cosmic evolution? Normally I would think you were a troll or a Poe, but seeing your other posts you are indeed legitimate.
Poor human race.

As 'trillions of years' is a drop in the bucket next to forever, then it is not beyond the prameters of the creation account for Adam and eve to have lived that long.

It might not be beyond your fairytale reasoning, but it is beyond scientific fact. For example, we know the universe to be 14.6 billion years old and not trillions.

Again, that was the point. Adam and Eve did everything according to plan. Even the fall was apart of the plan. without it none of us would have been here.

rgherhthhthrthhrrths
His best plan was to force continual suffering on the descendents of the first man and woman?
This also rules out free will. If he planned them to do these things and made them knowing they would act in that way, then he "programmed" them. That's all there is to it.

Genesis 3:2 seem to disagree with your account of things. Satan asks what did god tell her and She repeats the warning. Eve knew what she was doing. again which was apart of the plan.

Genesis 3:2 doesn't indicate that Eve heard God directly, just that she understood god to have said not to eat of the tree. I feel silly arguing about fairy tales, so I'll just stop.

Otherwise the tree nor Satan would have ever been allowed in the Garden. This whole thing was about choice from the beginning.

No choice if there was a predestination for A&E and Satan.

If you have sex with someone with aids and you contract HIV is it a consenquence or punishment? God told them what would happen, and it did. That is a consenquence as the direct result of an specific action.
The 'punishment' was to be found in the hard labor Men were to do and the pains of labor women experienced in child birth. The handing the world over and making man responsiable for everything was a consenquence.
Even if you insist that it was still a punishment, Punishments are always a consenquence of undesired action. Still makes it a consenquence.

The AIDs didn't threaten the guy's dick with HIV before he stuck it in.

Only when we want to be.

Sorry, your just wrong. Even the ever vigilant Superman of anti-gullibility can be fooled.

This is what satan played on. They wanted to be fooled and were looking for any reason to be fooled into doing something they knew was wrong, but wanted to do anyway..

WTF. Wanted to be fooled? Your full of shit.

There is no blame as it was apart of the plan, and yet God took responsiablity for the sins commited anyway.

If his plan screws up he isn't some kind of saint for taking responsibility. You have got to be kidding.

They knew of death. God warned them they would die if they ate of that fruit.. what else is their to say? they wanted to eat of that fruit probably because they did everything else 1000 times over and want to see what elses there was to experience. Even in the face of the warning God gave them.

It was "God's plan" though. The prick set it up for their failure by your own admission, so it is no fault of theirs.

Do i have to seriously explain this "moving the goal post" fallacy to each and every one of you?

If you are speaking about God and the bible is the only book that defines God or if you ask a question that is based on what the bible tells you, then the bible (like it or not) becomes a legitmate source. or "real evidence."
You can not base a question from the bible and then refuse the bible as a legitmate source to answer a question derived from with in it's pages.

Actually, yes you can. Here, I'll show you.
Lets take Spiderman for example. I hate Spiderman and think it is a crap comic, so it is a good target for an analogy.
The question derived from a Spiderman comic? How about, "Did Spiderman swing from webs?"
The answer is no, he didn't. There is no evidence to support this. But according to you, we should believe that he did in fact swing from webs because the comic says so.

God's leading attribute is righteousness and not Love. Otherwise how could He sacerfice His son?

To establish sacerdotalism. ba dum tss.

Righteousness Demands that the wage of sin be paid out. Or that attonement be offered in the sinners stead.

But God planned it that way. It's his fault.

Prayer does, wish making, not so much.

So God has a part in this fucked up world we live in?

appearently not. although one could argue that the only difference being, is that the supposed 'sheep' seem to read/listen and doesn't need to asked questions that have been answered this many times...

TL;DR. I want to keep my sanity.

Either take back the part about God being blameless, or take back the part about prayer being futile.

Why?
[/quote]
Logic dictates you to do so?
If God has a part in the world through prayer or anything, then he isn't blameless. Hell, he planned it this way. He created this world knowing full well of disease and cancer and war, so he isn't blameless either way.

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[Drich]

I am reposting the evolution thread. please move evolution/creation comments to that thread.

[Minimalist]

'Trillion' is a silly concept

But talking snakes and virgin births are what? The height of rationality?

[Cinjin]

I loved the part where Drich said that Adam and Eve wanted to believe the lie.

What is it with god and plant-life anyway?? The Tree of Life, the Tree of Knowledge, the Burning Bush, the obsession with fig trees, I mean for fucks sake, he even had his son nailed to a tree after having him beaten with reeds and crowned with thorns.

As for Drich saying that Adam and Eve wanted to believe the lie. Ok maybe, but clearly their god wanted them to believe the lie too. If he didn't he wouldn't have made the damn tree ... and since he KNEW that they would indeed eat from the tree even before he created the damn thing (being all-knowing and what not), then clearly he wanted them to do so. There's no way to get around the fact that their god in that ridiculous story is playing both sides. It really wouldn't surprise me in the least if he was the serpent as well.

I mean seriously, you have to be some special kind of stupid to believe that this story is actually true. It's clearly a very poorly written fairy tale.

[Cyberman]

---

Oh I see; you were being a smartarse. Ok, I can play that game too. It's taken 43 pages to get to where A&E could have been imprisoned in their garden for trillions of years, just because the bible story doesn't give a number? Well then, this is just another point which shows that the story and characters involved therein - including the biblegod - have no connection with reality, a.k.a. the Universe in which we actually live, at least as far as your interpretation allows.

We only have around fourteen and a half thousand million years to play with, and the Earth has only been around for the last four and a half thousand million years of that. Out of that period, our species has only been around for something like two hundred thousand years.

Whether you take the word trillion to mean (n)000,000,000,000 or the mathematically more correct (n)000,000,000,000,000,000 - where (n) is whatever number your arse dispenses - reality is shaking its head at you in pity.

---

As I explained earilier 'Trillion' is a silly concept/number but if you insist on putting into an mathmatical equasion (still all of which was already mentioned in a perveious explaination) "trillion" (N) is what ever number or how many ever zeros you want to put on the time span between the 6 litteral days of creation and the fall of man that happened around 6000 years ago. so no matter how long you need to put between yourself and the dawn of creation, for the sake of my arguement 'trillion' (N) is that number.

Probably because i can not picture any thing larger without getting lost in the numbers. (It's my upper limit)

Mathematics isn't exactly my strong suit either, but the argument from personal incredulity is the silliest peg on which to hang your hat.

As for the rest, Google Translate came up tilt. Anyone?

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And since I can't resist:

'Trillion' is a silly concept

"That's Tricia McMillan to you!"

[Cinjin]

'Trillion' is a silly concept

But talking snakes and virgin births are what? The height of rationality?

Last I read, the earth is nowhere near trillions of years old. Not even close. 4 to 5 billion years, 6 at the most. Relatively little when compared to even one trillion.

and yes talking snakes and floating deities are FAR more believable. Here is my evidence:




and of course never forget:

[Drich]

[quote='Skepsis' pid='320201' dateline='1344306045']
[quote]Dude... where in the name of Cthulhu are you talking about? If an "evolutionist" is a person who believes evolution to be scientific theory, then I guess I am one. If an evolutionist is a person that believes the universe to be trillions of years old while simultaneously being 6,000 years old, that the universe was created, and that Adam and Eve existed, then I am surely not one and I might be so bold as to say that nobody is one. Seriously? Is this the extent of your knowledge on biological and cosmic evolution? Normally I would think you were a troll or a Poe, but seeing your other posts you are indeed legitimate.
Poor human race.[/quote] So, because you do not understand a concept that has not been drilled into you, I am the 'slow' one? I reposted my explaination of evolution/creation, and if you wish to have that conversation let's do it there.

[quote]It might not be beyond your fairytale reasoning, but it is beyond scientific fact. For example, we know the universe to be 14.6 billion years old and not trillions.[/quote]again, billion, trillion bazillion, whatever number is currently in vogue for the age of the universe, it fits neatly with in the term "eternity." again if you wish to have this discussion further take it to the other thread. I want to discuss prayer here.

[quote]His best plan was to force continual suffering on the descendents of the first man and woman?
This also rules out free will. If he planned them to do these things and made them knowing they would act in that way, then he "programmed" them. That's all there is to it.[/quote] It looks like maybe you catching on.

[quote]No choice if there was a predestination for A&E and Satan.[/quote] Oh, oh there you go again! I think you got it.

[quote]Sorry, your just wrong. Even the ever vigilant Superman of anti-gullibility can be fooled.[/quote]You've moved the goal posts again. We weren't talking about people never being fooled. We were talking about people being easy to fool when they are looking for a reason to do something foolish.

[quote]If his plan screws up he isn't some kind of saint for taking responsibility. You have got to be kidding.[/quote]How does it screw up? Oh, you must still think we are working on the old catholic model that says we must be perfect all of the time and spend 2/3s of our time confessing for the 1/3 of our life we dare to live.

Look If God wanted us to live perfect lives in His will all of the time whether we wanted to or not there would not have been an oppertunity for sin planted in the middle of the Garden, nor would satan be allowed in to temp anyone. But he was and the tree was planed in the Garden before A&E were created.

The fall and handing this world over to man was all apart of the process of choosing we have. In order for their to be true choice we must have real options and unregulated consenquences. In order to have this we must live in a world/realm where the presents of God of the knoweledge of God's Glory is not imediatly known.

Otherwise 'choice' would be effected by the knoweledge of God's presents. for instance if we did something really stupid and God saved us from our stupid choices all of the time, then we would modify our lives to live with in His safty net. Like wise if the presents of God were known Or even if their were absolute undisputable verfiable proof of God (like you guys seem to want so badly) then no one would have a choice except to choose Christ.

Contary to popular belief God does not want everyone to goto Heaven. He only wants those who want to be with Him with all of their hearts, Minds, Spirits, and Strength. we know this because this is what He told us in the bible, and subsequently this is what it takes to find Him in this life now.
If it weren't this way, then every self perserving God hating person would seek redemption. Even if they did not really Love God.

With a life lived apart from the known glory of God we will know without doubt what we thought of God. For we will have lived a life dedicated to what we 'thought of God.'

so you see this life was no accident, or a fix for something out of God's control, but the plan from the beginning. Even the suffering we and our children endure, for it puts more distance between God haters and the God they Hate, and It brings those who Love God in closer. All boiling down to your final judgement. so when you are judged you will know where you stand before your sentence is given to you. and you will know for the rest of your existance that God's judgement to be Just.

[quote]Actually, yes you can. Here, I'll show you.
Lets take Spiderman for example. I hate Spiderman and think it is a crap comic, so it is a good target for an analogy.
The question derived from a Spiderman comic? How about, "Did Spiderman swing from webs?"
The answer is no, he didn't. There is no evidence to support this. But according to you, we should believe that he did in fact swing from webs because the comic says so.[/quote]

Moving the Goal post as a Logical fallacy:
Moving the goalposts, also known as raising the bar, is an informal logically fallacious argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. In other words, after a goal has been scored, the goalposts are moved farther to discount the attempt. This attempts to leave the impression that an argument had a fair hearing while actually reaching a preordained conclusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

[quote]So God has a part in this fucked up world we live in?[/quote]Seriously? reread my second post It explains the difference in prayer and in wish making and God's role in all of it.

[quote]Logic dictates you to do so?
If God has a part in the world through prayer or anything, then he isn't blameless. Hell, he planned it this way. He created this world knowing full well of disease and cancer and war, so he isn't blameless either way.[/quote]
So?