Ah, excellent, I get to make a choice as to whether or not I"m going to be under the authority and control of god? Good, I choose no. Now, hopefully god can handle that I've made a decision and avoid imposing his will and authority on me in this life or the next. He can do that right?

(I assume you're willing to completely abandon this bullshit as soon as it's convenient for you -but hey, I've been wrong before)

No, no, no, Rhythm: God so willed it that he would have no will to be lenient after he sent his son to be crucified for the sins of all men. It was the great Catch Trinitwo, you know. Consequently, you really need to take care of god, because what he actually sacrificed was his own free will-just so you could have yours, see?

(August 6, 2012 at 9:15 am)Rhythm Wrote: Ah, excellent, I get to make a choice as to whether or not I"m going to be under the authority and control of god? Good, I choose no. Now, hopefully god can handle that I've made a decision and avoid imposing his will and authority on me in this life or the next. He can do that right?

(I assume you're willing to completely abandon this bullshit as soon as it's convenient for you -but hey, I've been wrong before)

The only reason i 'abandon' a dialog is because the other person goes outside my mission statement. (To answer biblically related questions and to provide clarity.) I am not here to mindlessly argue or debate the other person's faith. once the question is answered biblically and there is no more to give then there is nothing more I can do except attack your faith, which I will not do. For God gave us this life to make a choice based on faith. It is not my job to alter your choice directly, but to provide you with information so as to allow you the oppertunity to make an informed choice. Even if it means you choose to maintain your current system of faith.


To answer your question, Yes God will leave you alone. You will be seperated from God, his will, and any part of His creation. Leaving you and all who choose 'to be left alone' all of eternity to be seperated from God.

---

(August 6, 2012 at 12:43 am)Stimbo Wrote: I've been trying to write a dissection of your last post, Dritch. However, as a result of your statement of A&E potentially being trillions of years old, my fingers just type out the words "cuckoo cuckoo" over and over again. I fear one of us is a lost cause.

We did this to death already or did you forget?
https://atheistforums.org/thread-11720.html

(August 6, 2012 at 2:14 am)Skepsis Wrote: Their only company being each other and God. How much trickery and manipulation do you think they had to go through?

The 'Garden' has been guessitmated to be 2/3s the size of North America. If Adam and Eve live there for trillions of Years probably very little. It is most likly even after trillions of years a space as large as may have been, they simply did everything their was to do been everywhere 1000 times and just got bored. Which would explain their proximity to the tree planted in the center of the garden when they were tempted.. Because it is the only thing there that was still a mystery to them.

Quote:They oughtn't be expected to know when they are being fooled.
And, why is the punishment so heavy for eating an apple?

They were being 'fooled' they were lied to so as to allow them to full fill their want and desire. God told them the truth, and they wanted to believe a lie.

Don't look at it as punishment. it was a consenquence of their actions. Either one is in god's will or he is not. until Christ there wasn no in between.

Quote:They were given life with the foreknowledge of how they would act. Was creating a world where Satan didn't interfere too difficult for God?

The point was Choice. satan was apart of that Choice. where it was something Satan wanted to be apart of or not god used what happened in the Garden to give everyone the oppertunity to choose whether or not they want to be with God for eternity.

Quote:A&E were blamed for acting on their free will... after Satan, the ultimate inveigler, convinced the female to eat. Why they were blamed for this is beyond me, because Satan shouldn't have been in the garden and they never had any interaction with those that might try to fool them. What kind of God makes the perfect paradise and then allows the ultimate in evil to waltz in and make a mess of it?

not evil, choice. Choice was always apart of God's equasion from the beginning. Otherwise why would he plant the tree of Knoweledge in the garden in the first place? satan verbalized the discontentment they both felt and then provided an avenue for them to act on what they were not supposed to have.

(August 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm)Drich Wrote: what are you talking about? Before God issued the commandments He either talked to people directly or through a Phophet.

Quote:Evidence?

The Old testament.

Quote: Before Christianity was founded he was saying this?

Yes

Quote: Either his creation is so stupid that we can't grasp it after so many attempts, or God is awful at conveying his message.

Or we could just not want to hear what God has to say.

Quote:Sin is simply unjust.

..And we are 'unjust' to sin.

Quote:Those that have never heard of God can't be expected to avoid sin completely.

Do you want to know why the tree of knowedge of Good and Evil got it's name? Because this 'tree's fruit' allowed one to understand the difference between Good and evil. Not that adam and Eve did not sin before they ate of the fruit, they were just not held to account for them before they ate of that fruit. That is also why I think god had to make consenquence simple for them to understand. "you eat you die." Because before that point they did not understand Sin and consenquence.

Quote: Sin is unavoidable- God made the system so that we would fail. When sin entails natural tendencies and necessities you know something is up.

Do forget He also provides attonement for sin so we are not longer bound to it.

(August 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm)Drich Wrote: That is just it God turned the Helm over to us. This is "His Will" that we be allowed to live apart from the known glory of God. In doing so we also live apart from God. This means we live apart from the protection of God and are the primary care takers of this world, not God. If you don't like how it is being run then do not blame God, blame those He left in charge of it.

Quote:If I don't like how...
What?
So, prayer has no effect, by your own words? If we run the world and God has no blame, then God has no part in the world. If God has no distinguishable part in the world, he is useless.
If your God is blameless then he has no part in the care taking of the world.

this world, this life is not our final desitnation. it is simply a proving grounds. we have been given this life to make a choice as to how we wish to spend eternity. God has removed Himself from this equasion unless you seek Him out, so you can make a choice based on what your heart truly wants. If you want god's help in your personal life then seek him out as outlined in the bible if not then you are free to do as you will. This could not happen if the Presents of God hovered over every desision we made and corrected the really bad ones.

As it is we make a choice and deal with the consenquences no matter what that means.

(August 6, 2012 at 11:08 am)Drich Wrote: We did this to death already or did you forget?
https://atheistforums.org/thread-11720.html

I'm old for my age, my mind gets tired easily from following these 'special needs' gymnastics at the best of times (plus these new meds don't exactly help; still, one of the potential known side effects is "sudden unexplained death", so not all bad news). If you have a point for sending me back down the snake to square one in a forty-two page thread, either hold my hand and guide a poor addled old atheist to what it is, or give me my £200 for passing GO. And yes I am deliberately mixing up my Milton Bradley/Waddingtons metaphors.

(August 6, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Drich Wrote:

(August 6, 2012 at 2:14 am)Skepsis Wrote: Their only company being each other and God. How much trickery and manipulation do you think they had to go through?

The 'Garden' has been guessitmated to be 2/3s the size of North America. If Adam and Eve live there for trillions of Years probably very little. It is most likly even after trillions of years a space as large as may have been, they simply did everything their was to do been everywhere 1000 times and just got bored. Which would explain their proximity to the tree planted in the center of the garden when they were tempted.. Because it is the only thing there that was still a mystery to them.

Sooo... none?
The blame lies on God even more so with this theory. First of all, trillions of years? Really? You can't assume that, just because there was no timeline, A&E lived for trillions of years.
Second, if God created them with curiosity and made it so they would live forever, whose fault is it when they run out of things to question and test?He put them in a confined environment and allowed them infinite life.

(August 6, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Drich Wrote: They were being 'fooled' they were lied to so as to allow them to full fill their want and desire. God told them the truth, and they wanted to believe a lie.

Eve knew that Satan was lying? How? Animals never meant any harm before, why should she suspect anything? Eve only heard this command secondhand from Adam, so it held less authority. Then a magic snake comes and fools the most gullible one, and the blame is on them? Nope, I still don't see it.

(August 6, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Drich Wrote: Don't look at it as punishment. it was a consenquence of their actions. Either one is in god's will or he is not. until Christ there wasn no in between.

But it was a punishment. It was detrimental to the people and was a consequence, making it a punishment. A punishment for something they shouldn't have been expected to follow through with anyway.

(August 6, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Drich Wrote: The point was Choice. satan was apart of that Choice. where it was something Satan wanted to be apart of or not god used what happened in the Garden to give everyone the oppertunity to choose whether or not they want to be with God for eternity.

Humans are easily fooled. We can't even tell reality from a dream half the time. I hear Satan's name means "deceiver". With Eve having little knowledge of God firsthand, she was the perfect target for being fooled. Both of them knew nothing about malevolent people or things trying to trick them, and were perfect targets. God knew all this and allowed Satan to continue in his existence anyway. You are trying to blame the victim, even if the scenario is in a fairytale.

(August 6, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Drich Wrote: not evil, choice. Choice was always apart of God's equasion from the beginning. Otherwise why would he plant the tree of Knoweledge in the garden in the first place? satan verbalized the discontentment they both felt and then provided an avenue for them to act on what they were not supposed to have.

And the bald man wanted hair so much he purchased snake oil from the salesman, despite the fact it would bankrupt his family.
Their fault was gullibility, even though they had no experience with other people? Keep in mind that even people who have been fooled before and are aware of the phenomenon can still be gullible.

Quote:

(August 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm)Drich Wrote: what are you talking about? Before God issued the commandments He either talked to people directly or through a Phophet.

Quote:Evidence?

The Old testament.

Sorry, should have been more clear. Real evidence.

(August 6, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote: Before Christianity was founded he was saying this?

Yes

And your Bible tells you soooo...

(August 6, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote: Either his creation is so stupid that we can't grasp it after so many attempts, or God is awful at conveying his message.

Or we could just not want to hear what God has to say.

and God didn't know that we would act in this way? He knew we would see through that kind of crap? First the Bible says, "Gullibility is bad, original sin". Then it says, "gullibility is preferable, if we were more gullible we could have heard and embraced God".

(August 6, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Sin is simply unjust.

..And we are 'unjust' to sin.

Lolwut

(August 6, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Drich Wrote: Do forget He also provides attonement for sin so we are not longer bound to it.

A blood sacrifice scapegoat? Why doesn't he just forgive us and recognize us for who he created us as? Why doesn't he have compassion for the creations he supposedly knows everything about? Killing and resurrecting someone is hardly a sacrifice, common sense tells us that. Why not just recognize our faults and be forgiving, rather than forcing a belief on everyone? 'Tis silly.

(August 6, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Drich Wrote: this world, this life is not our final desitnation. it is simply a proving grounds. we have been given this life to make a choice as to how we wish to spend eternity. God has removed Himself from this equasion unless you seek Him out, so you can make a choice based on what your heart truly wants. If you want god's help in your personal life then seek him out as outlined in the bible if not then you are free to do as you will. This could not happen if the Presents of God hovered over every desision we made and corrected the really bad ones.

As it is we make a choice and deal with the consenquences no matter what that means.

Sooooo... prayer doesn't work? You didn't answer my objection, you just offered me the common Xtian babble. I am not one of your sheep. That shit doesn't work on a questioning individual.
Either take back the part about God being blameless, or take back the part about prayer being futile.

(August 6, 2012 at 11:08 am)Drich Wrote: The only reason i 'abandon' a dialog is because the other person goes outside my mission statement. (To answer biblically related questions and to provide clarity.) I am not here to mindlessly argue or debate the other person's faith. once the question is answered biblically and there is no more to give then there is nothing more I can do except attack your faith, which I will not do. For God gave us this life to make a choice based on faith. It is not my job to alter your choice directly, but to provide you with information so as to allow you the oppertunity to make an informed choice. Even if it means you choose to maintain your current system of faith.


To answer your question, Yes God will leave you alone. You will be seperated from God, his will, and any part of His creation. Leaving you and all who choose 'to be left alone' all of eternity to be seperated from God.

Good, excellent, that means I'm free to wander all about wherever I like (hiding peoples keys for example) for all eternity. I get to walk in and out of the gates of heaven as I see fit, whenever I see fit, (to visit loved ones who opted in). Anything less would be your deity exerting authority over me, which you have explicitly stated I can opt out of. So all of this "seperated from god and all his creation" bullshit is just that, bullshit. I could, if I felt like it, walk into the presence of the lord almighty, not as some subservient worshiper, but as an equal, fully removed from this creatures authority.

As I said, you'd abandon this garbage the moment someone is okay with it. You began by telling me that I could choose whether or not god had any authority over me (and whether or not I would enjoy the protection offered), but the moment I chose "no thanks", you proceeded to tell me what god would bar me from doing.

Bullshit. You clearly haven't thought this through.

(August 6, 2012 at 1:53 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(August 6, 2012 at 11:08 am)Drich Wrote: We did this to death already or did you forget?
https://atheistforums.org/thread-11720.html

I'm old for my age, my mind gets tired easily from following these 'special needs' gymnastics at the best of times (plus these new meds don't exactly help; still, one of the potential known side effects is "sudden unexplained death", so not all bad news). If you have a point for sending me back down the snake to square one in a forty-two page thread, either hold my hand and guide a poor addled old atheist to what it is, or give me my £200 for passing GO. And yes I am deliberately mixing up my Milton Bradley/Waddingtons metaphors.

As we do not have a "waddingtons" I have no Idea what your talking about. If you want a link to the actual content of that post I have no idea where it is exactly, but i did cut and repost on a Christian site to see what they could do with it: http://www.christianforums.com/t7643307/

Same thread, just different responses.

I loved the part where Drich said that Adam and Eve wanted to believe the lie. Maybe Drich really is a decedent of Adam and Eve. He sounds just fucking like them.

I bet he'll think that's a compliment.