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October 12, 2012 at 12:43 pm (This post was last modified: October 12, 2012 at 12:45 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(October 12, 2012 at 12:29 pm)Darkstar Wrote: ...
Wait...what does 'elect' mean in this context?
Basically, God created only a select number of humans that he would save. He never intended to save all of them (yet he created them all anyway) because not all of them supposedly would respond to his "calling."
It's the doctrine that comes from Calvinism which is often contrasted with Arminianism. Most protestants fall somewhere in-between the two.
It's a debate that will never end because the Bible is contradictory on the matter since it was written by different authors with different view points. You'll find verses that support election and anti-free will and others that say God died for everyone and we have free will. And both sides have to engage harmonization of the different verses in scripture to make it seem like there's one view point voiced in the bible.
Quote:Faith is not something you conjure up yourself. Faith itself is something given by God
God should give everyone faith then.
My ignore list
No one is here because I can handle all of you motherfuckers!
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
(October 12, 2012 at 12:36 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: It is crazy. And you're crazy for accepting such things as proofs of God.
1 Cor 1:18
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor 1:21-31
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
Tell me how your religious experience is any better than a Mormon's "burning of the bosom" or the recalling of past lives, or alien abduction memories.
My ignore list
No one is here because I can handle all of you motherfuckers!
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
(October 12, 2012 at 12:43 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: God should give everyone faith then.
I'm glad to see that you are concerned for others. I think a good place to start would be with your own faith.
Pray to the Lord that He will grant you faith to believe
Luke 11:13
If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
(October 12, 2012 at 12:53 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote:
(October 12, 2012 at 12:43 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: God should give everyone faith then.
I'm glad to see that you are concerned for others. I think a good place to start would be with your own faith.
Pray to the Lord that He will grant you faith to believe
Luke 11:13
If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
Nice red herring you got there.
My ignore list
No one is here because I can handle all of you motherfuckers!
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
(October 12, 2012 at 12:51 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Tell me how your religious experience is any better than a Mormon's "burning of the bosom" or the recalling of past lives, or alien abduction memories.
I haven't experienced the other things you've mentioned so I am not equipped to properly compare and contrast them. All that I am prepared to do is speak to my own experiences.
If you are struggling with those issues though I would invite you to pray to God for discernment. But don't ask unless you really want an answer.
James 1:5-8
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;
8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
(October 12, 2012 at 12:59 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: ...
I haven't experienced the other things you've mentioned so I am not equipped to properly compare and contrast them. All that I am prepared to do is speak to my own experiences.
If you are struggling with those issues though I would invite you to pray to God for discernment. But don't ask unless you really want an answer.
...
Tried all that stuff before. Never get an answer.
This all just a red herring anyway. God could easily give everyone faith. All he'd have to do is just reveal himself. But no, he's just as silent as all the thousands of other gods in human history.
My ignore list
No one is here because I can handle all of you motherfuckers!
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
(October 12, 2012 at 1:05 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Tried all that stuff before. Never get an answer.
It takes persistence sometimes
Luke 11:5-10
5 And he said to them, "Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves,
6 for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him';
7 and he will answer from within, 'Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything'?
8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs.
9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Luke 18:1-8
1 And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart.
2 He said, "In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man.
3 And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, 'Give me justice against my adversary.'
4 For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, 'Though I neither fear God nor respect man,
5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.'"
6 And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge says.
7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?
8 I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"
(October 12, 2012 at 12:46 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote:
(October 12, 2012 at 12:36 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: It is crazy. And you're crazy for accepting such things as proofs of God.
1 Cor 1:18
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor 1:21-31
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
And what makes this mumbo jumbo any more valid or truthful than what we (atheists) say here on this forum?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
No one is here because I can handle all of you motherfuckers!
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
