Another gun thread...

[Tiberius]

Can average citizens defend themselves against criminals with guns? Yes says this blogger, who each week is reporting on every instance of a homeowner defending their property (and their family) against burglars and home-invaders.

http://libertyandsuch.com/10-cases-of-fi...n-11-days/

[Napoléon]

Can average citizens defend themselves against criminals with guns?

As far as I'm aware nobody here said they couldn't.

Personally I couldn't give a flying fuck whether people apparently defend themselves with guns, good for them. Still besides the point. In no way does it prove guns are necessary for self defence or indeed effective.

[The Grand Nudger]

Personally, I don't imagine that a gun, in and of itself, is necessary or effective as a means of defense against a home intruder (you still have to know how to use the damned thing....and my idea of effective use is a great deal more involved than pointing and pulling the trigger). Personally, I think that a nice door with a proper lock goes a long way.

[Napoléon]

Now that, I 100% agree with

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, you know, even though people may not see eye to eye on the overall issue nothing stops them from sharing a communal cringe at some of the offerings from either side.

The whole self defense bit (not really in the case of people who have fired at intruder but people who haven't but think it's a good argument) evokes two amusing scenarios in my mind. In the one you have me, standing behind my door while someone tries to beat it in chuckling my ass off saying "how can I help you sir" as I call the cops. In the other, someone imagines themselves stalking through their house in dead of night, predator style, with home-field advantage-about to rid the world of one more home intruding son of a bitch. It's difficult for me to determine which scenario has more comedic potential.

[Tiberius]

Gotta love Ben Swann.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9efqhGBHZI

[JohnDG]

Gotta say this topic is only an issue because of the emotional hype of the latest school massacre. Fuck the schools America blew up in Pakistan with over 160 students dead. Fuck the 14yr olds + we kill in Iraq because they are within military age. Fuck the drug cartel massacre's in Mexico where families are lined up in rows and executed to discourage resistance. Fuck the fact that people in India and china live with school and public building bombings/shootings every single day. Oh what 20 kids got killed take all the guns away because it's more atrocious than children dying in other countries and hype the fact that schools are a GUN FREE ZONE.

It is very sad, but I think of the world when such events happen and am thankful it does not happen every day as in other countries. We do not live in utopia, predators will always live amongst us and our constitution is our strongest defense against them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wUGiuMpFJ0

There are many reasons we Americans want to own guns.

-This country was not only founded upon the right to bare arms, but also is the reason we won it in the first place.

-As Americans we simply choose to excercise all of the rights we have to the fullest.

-As americans we want to ensure that we will always and truely be free. Nobody is going to enslave us or take away our right to a free lifestyle. No thug can enslave us with fear. No government can enslave us physically or with unjust laws.

-Our government is one of the people, by the people, for the people, and we will ensure it stays that way.

-"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." -Thomas Jefferson

-"To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them."
George Mason

-"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance, They are the people's liberty's teeth."
President George Washington

-Police cannot be everywhere at once, and it is up to us citizens to protect ourselves, our family and property.

-Without the ability to project an equal force your chances of survival are limited.

-"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troop."
Noah Webster

-You must give up your freedom for security, but with freedom you maintain security yourself.

The best reason why we have them.

-"We are the first modern European nation to achieve complete gun control" - Adolph Hitler

[A Theist]

Gotta love Ben Swann.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9efqhGBHZI

Excellent!....

[Napoléon]

-This country was not only founded upon the right to bare arms, but also is the reason we won it in the first place.

Explain how this is relevant today.

-As Americans we simply choose to excercise all of the rights we have to the fullest.

I'm not even sure of what you mean by this

-As americans we want to ensure that we will always and truely be free.

You are not free. You will never be free whilst you have a government. Get the fuck over it. Maybe my definition of freedom differs to yours but you are certainly not living in a free country like everyone loves to think.

Try not paying taxes. See how far your freedom gets you then.

Nobody is going to enslave us or take away our right to a free lifestyle. No thug can enslave us with fear. No government can enslave us physically or with unjust laws.

Because you have guns?

The mindset of someone who was living in George Washington's times.

-Our government is one of the people, by the people, for the people, and we will ensure it stays that way.

You're deluded.

-"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." -Thomas Jefferson

A guy who lived two hundred years ago talking on a topic that is completely different now to what it was then.

-"To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them."
George Mason

Another guy who lived two hundred years ago talking on a topic that is completely different now to what it was then.

-"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance, They are the people's liberty's teeth."
President George Washington

Yet another guy who lived two hundred years ago talking on a topic that is completely different now to what it was then.

-Police cannot be everywhere at once, and it is up to us citizens to protect ourselves, our family and property.

Again, an outdated mindset IMHO. The sort of mindset that leads to vigilantism.

Get in the 21st century bro.

-Without the ability to project an equal force your chances of survival are limited.

I call bullshit.

Clarify a scenario and I'll tell you why.

-"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troop."
Noah Webster

What exactly do you think you're proving with this? Some guys opinion from hundreds of years ago? These aren't nuggets of wisdom you know.

-You must give up your freedom for security, but with freedom you maintain security yourself.

Idealistic bollocks.

Like I said, you ain't free, carry on deluding yourself that you are.

-"We are the first modern European nation to achieve complete gun control" - Adolph Hitler

A comparison with Hitler? Wow, didn't think I'd see you stoop so low John.

---

I'll respond to Tibs vid when I can be arsed.

[Tiberius]

-This country was not only founded upon the right to bare arms, but also is the reason we won it in the first place.

Explain how this is relevant today.

It's relevant because the 2nd amendment was written precisely because the USA had been born through a violent uprising against an oppressive government. The founding fathers surmised that the same action might be needed again. That is why it is relevant today.

Nobody is going to enslave us or take away our right to a free lifestyle. No thug can enslave us with fear. No government can enslave us physically or with unjust laws.

Because you have guns?

Because the citizens can fight back against oppression.

The mindset of someone who was living in George Washington's times.

With the number of laws going around in recent years that try to reduce civil liberties, this mindset is still relevant today, if not more so.

-"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." -Thomas Jefferson

A guy who lived two hundred years ago talking on a topic that is completely different now to what it was then.

I fail to see how that topic is completely different now to what it was then. This is a universal truth of governments; if you have a government which holds all the power, it will become tyrannical (I have never seen a benevolent dictatorship). If a government is restricted and controlled by the electorate, liberty is maximized.

-"To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them."
George Mason

Another guy who lived two hundred years ago talking on a topic that is completely different now to what it was then.

Are you saying there are more effective ways to enslave people than to take away their methods of fighting enslavement?

-Police cannot be everywhere at once, and it is up to us citizens to protect ourselves, our family and property.

Again, an outdated mindset IMHO. The sort of mindset that leads to vigilantism.

Get in the 21st century bro.

Given the number of criminals who are killed by people in self-defense in America, I'd say this mindset is very much in date. If a person breaks into your home, they will rarely stay long enough for the police to show up, that is, if you manage to call them. If you have a gun, you can stop the criminal yourself.

-Without the ability to project an equal force your chances of survival are limited.

I call bullshit.

Clarify a scenario and I'll tell you why.

How about this one? A criminal breaks into your home carrying a gun. Are your chances of survival higher if you have a gun, or if you don't? Without a gun, the criminal could shoot you easily. With one, you can shoot them back.